ST4S - Soul destroying issues of getting it to start

Keith_henson

Keith_henson

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Hi All,

I need some help from the hive mind on my 2001 ST4S and it's utter ability to be a complete co*kwomble and not start (or in other cases start and run like a dream). I acquired it this Feb before I disappeared off to West Africa for work for 10 weeks. It had been stood for about 4.5 years in a warehouse style work shop so it was in good nick and in in being away my local place (Road and Race in Telford) did the belts for me as the last time these were done was 2004 according to the service paperwork I have :oops:. MOT was also done for me (it started on this occasion for Jason). Put in some Vpower and in finding that it would easily turn over, but just that little bit away from actually starting I have been through the following process:

- New battery (old one was from 2002!), not lithium ion
- New exact start leads (as they made a hell of a difference to my ST2 starting, which I might add is an absolute dream and totally bomb proof in starting and going)
- Cleaned up all the contact points on the starter motor and solenoid with a dremel scouring bit
- Di-electric grease on all of the above ends
- Contact cleaner throughout on all loom connectors to ensure a good electrical contact and corrosion had been removed
- Checked all electrical charging levels whilst running (when it started), all good.

Seemed to start ok a few times. When it did start I ran it in for a good 100 miles to clean it through. Stopped at service station here in Much Wenlock to put a fresh tank of fuel in and it only *just* started to get me home. Next steps in my process:

- Change the fuel filter
- Clean the fuel pump gauze
- Change the tank O-Ring (yes, i got covered in Vpower the first time round in putting the pump assembly back in and nicking the O-ring)
- Change the spark plugs (iridium ones as the old ones where from 2002) and these were quite black from it running too rich

Started once last night so I was thinking of going for a ride today (as its lovely and sunny and the Welsh mountains beckon) and now it won't even entertain the thought of it. When I took the K&N air filter off this afternoon, there was some oily deposits on the throttle body inlets, nothing serious but confirms that its running too rich.

It's still got its Ducati Remus exhausts on it and I know that the original ECU shat itself in 2002, as I wrote to the original owner and his wife called me (in her mid 70s) as her poor husband has advanced stage 5 dementia :( She told me about all of the bike races they went to, took the bike behind their motorhome to European races and also told me about replacement ECU from Blue Streak in Nottingham. It was the prototype they made which then was produced for other ST4S's which get me wondering, is this an ECU mapping issue? Road and Race have a full DynoJet dyno so thats next on the list. Its the only thing other than the starter motor and sprag clutch I can think of (the cost of replacing which makes me cringe).

Any help would be most welcome :)

Many thanks

Keith
 
Immobiliser is working all good. That was one of the things I checked on in the beginning that the RFID chip was talking to the unit. When it powers on, the light stops flashing and all is ok. Its been on a 100 mile run (and a joy to ride) but its like its just missing something. I was thinking of piggy-backing a spare battery I have for some extra umph when starting it.....
 
How would you disarm it by the way?

Edit: ah, in the ECU. I dont think that the problem but I will keep it in mind if I head down that route :(
 
Keith_henson said:
How would you disarm it by the way?
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I think it's an ECU change @Derek will probably be best for help there.

If it's harder to start when warm that's often a sign of dirty connections but you've checked them.

When it refuses to start does the fuel pump prime and starter motor turn, uf not check the sidestand safety relay (under fairing left side) as these are temperamental
 
Barry Hell said:
I think it's an ECU change @Derek will probably be best for help there.

If it's harder to start when warm that's often a sign of dirty connections but you've checked them.

When it refuses to start does the fuel pump prime and starter motor turn, uf not check the sidestand safety relay (under fairing left side) as these are temperamental
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OK, thanks :) I'll look in to the ECU side of things, it's not the most wanted bike in the world these days.....

When I attempt to start it, its on its centre stand, side stand up When I turn the key, the pump primes no worries and the starter motor turns no problem either. I will have a look a the sidestand relay as it has all the fairings off anyway. When it doesn't start I can smell fuel afterwards. I have heard a couple of "sounds", not sure if it was a back fire or the like, but it made me stop and turn it off and go for a brew.
 
Keith_henson said:
OK, thanks :) I'll look in to the ECU side of things, it's not the most wanted bike in the world these days.....

When I attempt to start it, its on its centre stand, side stand up When I turn the key, the pump primes no worries and the starter motor turns no problem either. I will have a look a the sidestand relay as it has all the fairings off anyway. When it doesn't start I can smell fuel afterwards. I have heard a couple of "sounds", not sure if it was a back fire or the like, but it made me stop and turn it off and go for a brew.
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If the fuel pump primes and it turns over the sidestand relay is fine. Sounds like no spark is the problem, when it has started has it turned over for a while before carching or is it straight away? Could be mixture. Are you using the fast idle lever to start from cold, I found aftrr a service with clean or new plugs it will start without fast idle but its better with fast idle about half open
 
When it has started it takes quite some time for it to catch. Its never started straight off. When I put the new plugs in, it caught just a few seconds after. Since then its been a right pig which makes me think its running too rich. I tried a little bit of fast idle, as much as i would for the ST2, maybe a bit more might be necessary.

I'lll head off to the mancave and give it a go and let you know
 
Change the iridium plugs for the original spec ones .

I’ll see if I can find something I read yonks ago but in the older bikes Iridium plugs are not always the best solution.

Anyway, with a bit of luck it looks like you’ve sorted it.

On mine, and on the 998 which is a similar vintage, I often find that even when the engine is warm(ish) it still needs a little of the fast idle lever -maybe 50% travel - to get it going.

FYI the fast idle lever just opens up the throttle body valves slightly and prevents them fully closing.
 
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Poor starting is a known issue on the ST4S. I found with mine that under no circumstances twist the throttle or use the fast idle lever whilst starting. Thumb the starter and once started use the fast idle lever. If I failed to do this the bike would not start. As said, avoid Iridium plugs.
Blue Streak found a way to program the ECU fitted to Fiat Puntos to the ST4S map. I have a couple of these and I am unable to access them to reprogram. I can read the map but no more.
A tuning Contact of mine in Germany created some modified maps to address the poor starting as it was also a problem over there.
You seem to have done the requisite mods to improve starting.
You might want to consider acquiring a second hand IAW59M ECU.
The next problem you may experience is immo failure. I have sorted this issue for numerous ST4S owners when they were looking at a £1200 bill from the main dealer.
If you source a new ECU the immo can be disabled and I believe I still have the modified maps to address the poor starting.
Persevere with the bike as it is a proper Wolf in Sheep’s clothing. With the suspension adjusted it can embarrass many a sports bike.
 
chrisw said:
Poor starting is a known issue on the ST4S. I found with mine that under no circumstances twist the throttle or use the fast idle lever whilst starting. Thumb the starter and once started use the fast idle lever. If I failed to do this the bike would not start. As said, avoid Iridium plugs.
Blue Streak found a way to program the ECU fitted to Fiat Puntos to the ST4S map. I have a couple of these and I am unable to access them to reprogram. I can read the map but no more.
A tuning Contact of mine in Germany created some modified maps to address the poor starting as it was also a problem over there.
You seem to have done the requisite mods to improve starting.
You might want to consider acquiring a second hand IAW59M ECU.
The next problem you may experience is immo failure. I have sorted this issue for numerous ST4S owners when they were looking at a £1200 bill from the main dealer.
If you source a new ECU the immo can be disabled and I believe I still have the modified maps to address the poor starting.
Persevere with the bike as it is a proper Wolf in Sheep’s clothing. With the suspension adjusted it can embarrass many a sports bike.
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Cool, thanks for the advice.

I will look at sourcing a new (old) ECU as I was looking at a power commander for it, but I would rather direct than indirect if you know what I mean and add another level of failure to the system. If I do get a new ECU is it a straight swap out for the original?

Sourced two new original plugs for the bike this afternoon so hopefully here this weekend

Many thanks to everyone for your help :)
 
Keith_henson said:
Cool, thanks for the advice.

I will look at sourcing a new (old) ECU as I was looking at a power commander for it, but I would rather direct than indirect if you know what I mean and add another level of failure to the system. If I do get a new ECU is it a straight swap out for the original?

Sourced two new original plugs for the bike this afternoon so hopefully here this weekend

Many thanks to everyone for your help :)
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I have a spare ecu from my s4rs , think it’s the same type of ecu will need reprogramming for the st4
but there if you want it
 
I have dug out the Bluestreak (or Injection Correction as they were known) ECU. It is an IAW59F HW103 ECU as used in Fiats and Lancias. It has been flashed to ST4S map 28640771A with a file size of 256kb. I can dump the map using MPPS (Multi Protocol Programming System). JPDiag and Guzzidiag will not dump the map from the ECU but will connect to it for diagnostics. I cannot write the file to the ECU using MPPS, JPDiag or Guzzidiag. This will be a problematic ECU if there are issues with it. The bin file is attached just change .pdf to .bin
 

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chrisw said:
I have dug out the Bluestreak (or Injection Correction as they were known) ECU. It is an IAW59F HW103 ECU as used in Fiats and Lancias. It has been flashed to ST4S map 28640771A with a file size of 256kb. I can dump the map using MPPS (Multi Protocol Programming System). JPDiag and Guzzidiag will not dump the map from the ECU but will connect to it for diagnostics. I cannot write the file to the ECU using MPPS, JPDiag or Guzzidiag. This will be a problematic ECU if there are issues with it. The bin file is attached just change .pdf to .bin
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Hi Chris,

I have found a replacement ECU on ebay from Germany (unless of course someone here has one lurking in the depths of their mancave), may I ask if you might be able to assist in the reprogramming of it? I have a set of carbon termis that came with the bike, that are like new, but putting them on will most certainly cause issues with the fuelling mixture, could this also be incorporated into the map or will a dyno be best to tune it?

Many thanks

Keith :)
 
Keith_henson said:
Hi Chris,

I have found a replacement ECU on ebay from Germany (unless of course someone here has one lurking in the depths of their mancave), may I ask if you might be able to assist in the reprogramming of it? I have a set of carbon termis that came with the bike, that are like new, but putting them on will most certainly cause issues with the fuelling mixture, could this also be incorporated into the map or will a dyno be best to tune it?

Many thanks

Keith :)
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Maybe it's already set up for the Termis, hence overfuelling? Chris will keep you right either way 👍
 
Just one other thing that occurred to me @Keith_henson is I had some issues in the early days with my ST4S that it just would not fire up. It would prime, crank and all seemed ok but not fire. I then read somewhere that the ecu is programmed such that if the starter button is not pressed within 10-15 secs of key on it disables the power to the coils. How true this is I do not know, probably one of those urban myths, @chrisw would know for sure. All I can say is since I read that and since making sure I always thumb the starter now even before the LCD display has run through its little start up thingy, which is what I was waiting for, I no longer have the issue.
 
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West Cork Paul said:
Just one other thing that occurred to me @Keith_henson is I had some issues in the early days with my ST4S that it just would not fire up. It would prime, crank and all seemed ok but not fire. I then read somewhere that the ecu is programmed such that if the starter button is not pressed within 10-15 secs of key on it disables the power to the cooks. How true this is I do not know, probably one of those urban myths, @chrisw would know for sure. All I can say is since I read that and since making sure I always thumb the starter now even before the LCD display has run through its little start up thingy, which is what I was waiting for, I no longer have the issue.
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I had read that as well and hadn't thought I could start it before the fuel level appeared after the welcoming ST4 dash.

I will give it a go :)
 
Keith_henson said:
I had read that as well and hadn't thought I could start it before the fuel level appeared after the welcoming ST4 dash.

I will give it a go :)
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Paul is likely correct.
The ST4S shared a fair few traits with the first version of the 999, including the engine, I believe. The 999 mk1 will disable the ignition if the starter isn't pressed within 10 secs of switching on.
 
From the handbook
 

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So. After a few beers last night, the only thing I had not tried was putting the baffles back in the exhausts as they were not in when I bought it. Placed aforementioned baffles in and as it so happens the poxy thing starts nearly on the dot.

It nearly didn't after an 80mile round trip this evening outside the pub for a pint of coke on the way home. It *just* caught (thankfully).

Aberystwyth tomorrow for a good razz with the son on the back, fish and chips and hope it bloody starts to come back home 😂
 
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