Monster S4 vs ST4s

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Phatty

New member
I've had the S4 for over 3 years now, love it to bits. It has had the Ducati Performance air filter, cut down airbox lid, chip and high level Termiginoni cans on it from new. So should be a good way above the stock 95bhp. Although its a pokey little blighter I was finding myself wanting more power and better suspension, and there was also the niggling issue of the mrs complaining of a sore backside due to the pathetic excuse of a pillion seat.

I toyed with the idea of an S4R, but at £1500 more than the S4 it just didn't make sense. Not when I already had the S4R bars on the S4. I tried to buy an ST4s Ohlins rear shock for it, but ended up being sent a Showa item. Plus, that didnt really help the mrs out either.

Then it dawned on me, just buy an ST4s! So that I did.

First impressions are that the ST4s doesn't feel as sharp as the S4. It feels heavy and sluggish to me, like it's a much bigger bike, even though it isn't. The steering is much slower, and I don't think it feel as fast accelerating either. I'm putting the steering feel down to the front forks being slightly longer on the ST. For more high speed stability I guess? I'm planning to swap over the S4R bars onto the ST and drop the forks through the yokes a bit. I do a fair bit of town driving on my commute so could do with a bit sharper turn in to dodge the idiot drivers.

Engine wise, I still think the S4 feels quicker. I don't know whether it's because I'm feeling more wind pressure or if it's the shorter gearing, but I'd swear if I didn't know any better I'd say it was the Monster that had the 996 and the ST with the 916! I haven't had the pleasure of being able to max them out, but the previous owner says the ST4s will do 165mph, whereas 135 seems to be about as much as the S4 will give.

Seating wise the ST feels a lot taller. Seat height only seems marginally taller (I'm quite short) but I feel so much higher up when on the bike. The ST footpegs are a lot lower and further back, so no more knee cramps hopefully. The bar positions are very similar, the S4 stock bars being ever so slightly straighter and level than the ST. I find both comfy, but would still prefer the S4R bars if they will fit.

Was hoping to spend all day on the ST to get to know it better, but didn't fancy it out in the fog. Will keep updating my thoughts on this thread as time goes by. I have both bikes insured still so I can switch between them for direct comparisons. Also have some pics to upload of the bar differences.
 
well it just goes to show you the difference in setting on basically the same bike can make

are you running the same tyres on both bikes #:?
 
Lowering the forks in the yolks does help, I went for 5mm and its enough at once - room is a little tight to do this - I covered the tank over well before maintenance.

Having said about the handling my Michi Road Pilots are well worn down and dont instil me with great confidence but then I've never had any bad moments either.

Interesting comparison!

N.B. The standard suspension tip is to adjust the rear so the tyre is just off the ground when the bike is on the main stand - works a treat!
 
Scotty said:
well it just goes to show you the difference in setting on basically the same bike can make

are you running the same tyres on both bikes #:?
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The tyres can make a big difference. I noticed that my bike turned in much quicker when I swapped from Contis to Pirellis. The Pirellis have a lighter carcase which helps.

iconic944ss said:
Lowering the forks in the yolks does help, I went for 5mm and its enough at once - room is a little tight to do this - I covered the tank over well before maintenance.

Having said about the handling my Michi Road Pilots are well worn down and dont instil me with great confidence but then I've never had any bad moments either.

Interesting comparison!

N.B. The standard suspension tip is to adjust the rear so the tyre is just off the ground when the bike is on the main stand - works a treat!
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There's not much scope for raising the forks in the yolks and it will give you issues with tyre touching the fairing on full bump but as Franks says raising the rear ride height makes a big difference. I don't know about the S4 but the ST4s comes fairly over geared as standard. Most people fit a 41t or 42t rear sprocket or change the front to a 14t which gives about the same gearing. This hugely improves the bike around town and gets it out of the lumpy area of the power delivery at motorways speeds.
 
I can't raise the rear, I'm too short. if anything it needs to go down a bit for me. I'm afraid I have to compromise handling perfection with actually being able to reach the floor.

Hopefully ditching those awful bars will let me drop it a little more than 5mm at the front, although I never considered that the tyre may hit the fairing. Never had a faired bike before! (which was evident when I scraped the fairing on the kerb this morning whilst using my acces card to raise the barrier at work...GRR!!)

I used to run Michelin Pilot Road 2's on the S4. It's currently on Avan azzaro's or something, they're garbage, awful in the wet. ST4 is on Metzler Sportecs, were only fitted 3 months ago.

It just doesn't seem as eager to turn in. With the Monster it was as if the bike could read my mind, I would just think about turning and I could do it without trying. With the ST4 it feels totally differnt, like it just wants to stay upright, and when I do tip it in I can feel the bars wanting to turn into the corner too. I never got that feeling with the S4. Dunno if it's because I have more leverage with a wider, striaghter bar? It'll be interested to get back on the monster with the stock S4 yoke and bars back on it. I always found it a bit unstable at high speed, I wonder if I'd dropped it too much.

Got the chance to wind it up a bit more this morning. It is quicker, it's just very deceptive, but that gearing, urgh! will give it time but I can see me dropping the gearing down. I'm never going to do 160mph, doesn't interest me.
 
Check your suspension settings. Incorrectly set up suspension can have an adverse effect on how the bike feels. It's probably best to put every thing back to the factory settings and start from there. The default is:-
Front:
Compression 12 clicks out
Rebound 11 clicks out
Preload 16mm
Rear:
Compression 14 clicks out
Rebound 14 clicks out
Preload is given as a spring length of 149.5mm (although I'm not sure how that relates to the hydraulic adjuster)

You should set the preload, front and rear to match your weight. The standard settings for rebound and compression are a bit on the soft side and you may want to increase them a bit. I went up a click on the rebound and 2 on the compression.
 
cheers for those Derek. the previous owner did say he meant to return them back to stock settings but couldn't find the owners manual. For the very same reson I've nt been able to set them to stock myself either. I know from when I first got the S4 how awful a bike can feel when it's not set up correctly for you.

Saying that, I'm still a complete novice when it comes to setting suspension up. I can't even remember which screw does rebound and which does compression!?

Impossible to see what the front preload is with those stupid bars covering up the tops of the forks. Man I hate those damn things.
 
I think my borrowed seat must have been lowered at some time as I have my rear tyre only just touching the ground now and the seat height measures 825mm.

Enough for a short arse like me, mind.

Phatty, you'd be welcome to have a spin on my ST to try and decide if the mods are worthwhile - it probably will be off the road by month end though.
 
Sweet, cheers!

Early days yet, but just read a guide thy said exactly te same thing i'm feeling. Apparently it's all down to Ducati settin the bike up for maximum stability, as it's pretty quick for a tourer, so it was meant to be able to still be rock steady with the panniers on at 150mph!!

They've confirmed what other have said, raise the rear and drop the front. I'll post up the settings also when I'm in front of the article. They say they will then handle superbly.

Great news, I was beginning to regret my purchase for a moment. Shorter gearing and a few suspension tweaks and it should feel great. I just need it to feel like it weighs 50kg less too....
 
Going off the settings in this guide:-
Rear preload wound up to 7mm (14 turns) of the adjuster, plus the 8mm or so already on the spring collar.. Front compression wound up to 12 clicks from minimum (was 8). Can't adjust rebound, someone has put the front spindle in 90° out so there's no hole for the screwdriver....and can't see the front compression adjusters without removing the bars. See what it's like in the morning.
 
Phatty said:
Going off the settings in this guide:-
Rear preload wound up to 7mm (14 turns) of the adjuster, plus the 8mm or so already on the spring collar.. Front compression wound up to 12 clicks from minimum (was 8). Can't adjust rebound, someone has put the front spindle in 90° out so there's no hole for the screwdriver....and can't see the front compression adjusters without removing the bars. See what it's like in the morning.
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That's a hell of a lot of rear preload, I have about 5 to 6 turns on mine. You can't just use someone else's settings, particularly the preload, you have to set it to match your weight. You should adjust the rear preload for about 35mm sag with your weight on it.
The front rider sag from the static position should be about 40mm for a road bike. You can optimise it by wrapping a cable tie round one of the stanchions just below the seals. Make sure it doesn't scratch the stanchion and isn't too tight that it's going to damage the seals. Then go for a ride on the bike covering as many riding conditions as you would normally do ( accelerating, braking, corners). Now check where the cable tie is on the fork leg. You should aim for about 10mm from the bottom which leaves a bit before bottoming out. If it is too far down increase the preload a bit and try again, if it is too high loosen the preload a little.

Compression and rebound adjustments should always be adjusted from the fully in position, for the last few clicks out the needle could be completely clear of the damping orifice. So counting from fully out means nothing.

The front rebound adjusters are at the top and should be easily accessible with the bars on, as is the preload with a deep socket.
The adjusters at the bottom are for the compression damping and if you loosen the wheels spindle nut (28mm socket) and the spindle clamps on each fork leg you should be able to rotate the spindle to the correct position to get access.
Take care not to overtighten the spindle clamp bolt or you can distort the spindle, the correct torque is19Nm, and retighten the wheel spindle nut to 63Nm.

There are a few articles on suspension set up in the Technical links in the Tech section although they are a bit difficult to find.
 
Thanks for that Derek. Suspension is something I've never particularly paid a great deal of attention to, mainly becasue I hadn't been riding that long and just didn't think i'd notice the difference. As the years have gone by I've started to pick up on a few things not quite right with my bikes but never really known how to address it.

It's something I'm keen to get my head around and learn more about.

The bike felt a lot better this morning anyway, the turn in felt a lot sharper and it didn't seem to have that horrible effect of wanting to drop into the corner once tipped in.

It's already got cable ties on the front legs. They were going down to about 20mm from the bottom, and I thought that looked too much, 10mm sounds a bit too close to bottoming out!?
 
Well done!

The standard bars are designed to be able to get a socket in to alter the fork preload. A narrow ruler or just a piece of rod can be used to guage the height of the indicator tube - making sure the two measurements are both as close to each other as possible.
 
Swapped the top yoke and bars for the S4R ones last night. A few issues, but will put all that in the other thread.

Bars feel a lot higher and straighter and thus comfier, but I can't decide if they look a bit daft on the bike? A few issues with switch/fairing contact too which I need to address or they're coming straight back off.

Set the rebound to 11 clicks out. Didn't have a spanner to adjust the preload (can't get a socket on with the new bars), most of my tools are still down my unit. It's set at 8mm out counting the lines (and presuming they are 2mm apart?). Cable ties are down to around 20mm from the bottom, so I guess that's not enough? I can't brake any harder as the brakes are juddering badly and feel awful.

Still can't get at the compression adjusters until I turn that front wheel spindle around.

Going to come to work on the Monster tomorrow to see how that feels with the original bars back on it and no steering damper.
 
Just for reference, I've had a quick check on my ST4s, front preload indicator is at 11mm out on both forks for my 15St (ish) weight.

A 22mm socket is the fit for the job but I gather its a bit harder with the new setup.
 
Forks dropped through about 18mm. doesn't look like the tyre will catch. Bike actually looks a lot better lowered too!

Still can't find the issue with the front brakes and the juddering. didn't get chance to ride today due to the impending snow. I dare say I might not get out again until well into the new year.

Still not convinced it's going to make a big enough difference to make me want to keep it. I don't want to spent all winter working on the wonrg bike. If the Monster doesn't sell I may even be tempted to sell the ST instead. Just not happy with it at all, don't like anything about the bike.
 
18mm is a LONG way to go.

Brake judder, trying to run though my head all the things I've heard of.....

Unevenly tightened disc bolts / caliper bolts
Worn bolts / worn bolt holes
Uneven pad wear
dust in calipers
Seized caliper piston(s)
Seized disc bobbins - spin them with a narrow bolt in the bobbin with a nut on either side.
Warped disc carrier or discs
Misaligned forks

Phew!

Next - I thought a quick Stat comparison was overdue for the two bikes and I'm quite surprised by how similar they both are:

S4%20v%20St4s.JPG


I expected around a 20Kg difference but not all the other similarities.

I was going to stick up for our ST's but after putting fuel stabiliser in for winter storage, mine refused to start on a freezing morning - so it can sulk in the garage for a while :mad:
 
Phatty said:
Just not happy with it at all, don't like anything about the bike.
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Very surprised that you are feeling this way. On paper, as indicated by the comparison above, both bikes are almost identical, with the exception of the engine (being 996cc instead of 916cc). The only real difference between them is the bodywork and the seat, which results in a diffenent in the seat height of just 17mm (just over half an inch in old money) which could easily be compensated for by adjusting the rear ride height, if that turned out to be an issue.

The bars from the S4R where also used on the later facelifted STs (IIRC) so can't see that making enough difference to "spoil" the bike.

It seems to me, that either your initial disappointment has tainted the bike enough that every little thing that's different becomes a problem (this is completely understandable and I'm not having a dig - been there done that, shouted abuse at my 998 and threatened to sell it only to forgive it everything a few hours later) or something is not right with your bike specifically - wrong fork oil, wrong springs, dare I mention accident damage, etc.

Just my twopence worth. I hope you do keep at it and get it sorted because the ST4s is a crackingly good but under-rated bike.
 
iconic944ss said:
18mm is a LONG way to go.

Brake judder, trying to run though my head all the things I've heard of.....

Unevenly tightened disc bolts / caliper bolts
Worn bolts / worn bolt holes
Uneven pad wear
dust in calipers
Seized caliper piston(s)
Seized disc bobbins - spin them with a narrow bolt in the bobbin with a nut on either side.
Warped disc carrier or discs
Misaligned forks

Phew!
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You can add to that brake pad material stuck to the surface of the disc. It creates an invisible film with friction that varies around the circumference of the disc giving the sensation of a warped disc(s). Mine's had it 3 or 4 times. Sometimes it goes away by itself after a while, if not it needed the discs removed and the braking surfaces scrubbed with emery then a Scotchbrite pad. I only had to do that once and it was very successful.
 
I need it to make a massive difference. Hence the big adjustment. Thought I'd fo for the maximum and work back from there. Weather is looking better for weds/ thurs so hopefully will get a ride out.

The bike is very very clean and tidy. I have no reason to believe it's ever been dropped, it's HPI clear and 2 owner bike.

I dunno. It don't feel right, it don't look right. I just prefer the Monster in every way. Just seems to me that i ride every day, and I'm not prepared to put up with a bike i don't like for the sake of keeping the mrs happy for the ten times a year she'll go on it.

Besides, theres a @@@@ cheap S4R on ebay....
 
Derek said:
You can add to that brake pad material stuck to the surface of the disc. It creates an invisible film with friction that varies around the circumference of the disc giving the sensation of a warped disc(s). Mine's had it 3 or 4 times. Sometimes it goes away by itself after a while, if not it needed the discs removed and the braking surfaces scrubbed with emery then a Scotchbrite pad. I only had to do that once and it was very successful.
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Ive read before that that is exactly he problem of brake judder, and in fact the whole "warped" scenario is a fallacy and they'll never actually distort to that degree.

New pads and a discs sand down I think. Changing the wheels and discs on the S4 improved the brakes massively so I know how they should feel.
 
Rode the Monster again last week (after the ST failed to start) and just chuckled and smiled the whole time. Got to work and instantly put the ST up for sale!

Well, decided to give the ST one last chance. Nice warm day so took it for a run out. Not ridden it since I dropped the forks through. Felt a little bit better, but nothing major.

Went to my lock up and swapped over the bars back to standard, couldnt live with the Magura bars making the levers and switch gear catch the fairing and the steering lock was an absolute pig to get on and off. Forks are now dropped through As far as they will go in the stock yoke and bars.

Jacked the front off the ground to spin the wheel and could feel a definite tight spot. Was also evident when pushing the bike, it'd let out and awful groan from the front brakes.

Whipped the pads out, spun the wheel, disc STILL catching! It was actually touching the caliper. It was visbilty distorted and over 1mm out of true on one side.

Used the technique of spinning the bobbins slowly with a drill whilst spraying them with brake cleaner from the back face. Gave the calipers a good scrub too and checked all the pistons moved in and out freely. No probs there (apart from copper grease caled all over the pads and pistons).

Sanded the pads flat and cleared out the grooves, they were blocked. Gave the discs a light sand with wet and dry too to take the film off.

Also turned the spindle so I could get st the compression adjuters. They were 10 clicks out. Preload was set at 6mm, backed those right off. Got more suspension travel now according to the cable ties.

And the ride home? Well, what a transformation!! Awful brake groan is gone. I can actually move the bike whilst I'm sat o nit, couldn't before! Heavy feeling is gone. It steers, it turns in, brakes smoothly and silently. I'm astounded, it's like a completely different bike! Think I may keep it after all.
 
I'm really glad that you seem to have found, and cured, the reasons for your disliking of the bike.

Hopefully now it will get the opportunity to redeem itself in your mind - folk like me can sing its praises until the cows come home but it has to be right for you - and you can make an informed decision about which one will most closely met you needs.

Is it really not an option to keep both?
 
Yeah, definitely think it could be made liveable, despite it's ugliness it is showing good signs of being a decent rideable bike now. Need to do something with that headlight, dipped beam is useless above 30mph.

I'm wanting to get into trackdays. Could use the monster i suppose, but I've got an itch for a 916 or 748 that needs scratching. Thought about better suspension, clip ons and such for the Monster but then thought why bother when theres bikes out there designed for track use.
 
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