The definitive Lithium Battery Thread

[West Cork Paul]

There were a few posts on the DOCGB FB group over the past 2-3 days about lithium batteries and fitting them on older bikes. Things along the lines of :
“If you want better starting fit a lithium battery”

“big weight saving if you fit a lithium battery”

“no need to use a special charger, I just use my old xxxx one”.

“no need to worry about them overheating today, they have built in protection”

“I saved £40 by buying a XYZ one rather than one of them shido ones”

etc etc etc.

As soon as anyone chipped in with ;

“you need the change the rec/rec as well” or,

“you can’t charge it with an Optimate 3” or,

“you’re better off spending more on a reputable brand”

etc etc

they got flamed. The usual response being,

“I’ve not had a problem in the x years I’ve had mine on my …”

Now I know there’s a few in here have fitted them, I know newer bikes now come with them, I know there’s a few on here that know a fair bit about electronics and batteries etc., I also know lithium battery technology and packaging has moved on in the past few years. Thus, as I’d like to understand more about this subject and as it will probably be of interest to numerous others, I thought I’d ask the Hive to contribute to a thread to put this thorny subject to bed once and for all.


ps. I did a search before posting and found these 4 threads.

https://www.ducati.community/threads/lithium-battery-set-up.490/

Mosfet Regulator Conversion - Lithium Battery Safe

I've decided to reproduce an article I originally posted on The Ducati Forum as it's a one that keeps getting referenced by others a bit when looking into installing a Lithium battery into an older Ducati that wasn't intended to be equiped with one originally, as it usually preceeded the...

www.ducati.community

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

My super expensive Shorai LFX18A-BS12 battery on the 1098R seems to have given up the ghost. 👻 The battery tender has been showing an error for about a month and I got round to turning it off and back on today only for the charger to not detect the battery. Fetch the key and turn the ignition on...

www.ducati.community

Warning Over Heat Issue - 2009 Ducati 1098r Lithium Battery Failure

Just removed a dead Lithium battery from a 1098R and sent it back to its owner (so I can no longer do any further tests). Looks like it got pretty hot.... enough to melt the case of the Lipo battery. Apologies for the poor picture, as you can see the middle of the case is swollen. Stu when...

www.ducati.community

pps it would be nice if we could keep this on topic.

ppps it would be nice if I won the lottery and I guess there’s more chance of that than keeping this on topic or helpful

 

[Barry Hell]

 

[final_edition]

⚰⚱

 

[HootOwl]

Shorai are shit ( I opted not to use the technical statement) JMT are also shit lithium batteries.

Use either Skyrich or Shido (made by Skyrich) if you want the best and safest lithium types ... or not as you choose SR uses a safety strip which will stop overcharging and thermal runaway ...They make the vast majority of OEM fitted lithium bike batteries, whatever label is on the product

You MUST use a charger that is safe for lithium battery charging unless you want to risk a fire - it will say if it is suitable. If it doesn't - it isn't.

Especially so if you buy one of the batts like Shorai or JMT which have no safety strip protection fitted.

 

[AirCon]

There were a few posts on the DOCGB FB group over the past 2-3 days about lithium batteries and fitting them on older bikes. Things along the lines of :
“If you want better starting fit a lithium battery”

“big weight saving if you fit a lithium battery”

“no need to use a special charger, I just use my old xxxx one”.

“no need to worry about them overheating today, they have built in protection”

“I saved £40 by buying a XYZ one rather than one of them shido ones”

etc etc etc.

As soon as anyone chipped in with ;

“you need the change the rec/rec as well” or,

“you can’t charge it with an Optimate 3” or,

“you’re better off spending more on a reputable brand”

etc etc

they got flamed. The usual response being,

“I’ve not had a problem in the x years I’ve had mine on my …”

Now I know there’s a few in here have fitted them, I know newer bikes now come with them, I know there’s a few on here that know a fair bit about electronics and batteries etc., I also know lithium battery technology and packaging has moved on in the past few years. Thus, as I’d like to understand more about this subject and as it will probably be of interest to numerous others, I thought I’d ask the Hive to contribute to a thread to put this thorny subject to bed once and for all.


ps. I did a search before posting and found these 4 threads.

https://www.ducati.community/threads/lithium-battery-set-up.490/

Mosfet Regulator Conversion - Lithium Battery Safe

I've decided to reproduce an article I originally posted on The Ducati Forum as it's a one that keeps getting referenced by others a bit when looking into installing a Lithium battery into an older Ducati that wasn't intended to be equiped with one originally, as it usually preceeded the...

www.ducati.community

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

My super expensive Shorai LFX18A-BS12 battery on the 1098R seems to have given up the ghost. 👻 The battery tender has been showing an error for about a month and I got round to turning it off and back on today only for the charger to not detect the battery. Fetch the key and turn the ignition on...

www.ducati.community

Warning Over Heat Issue - 2009 Ducati 1098r Lithium Battery Failure

Just removed a dead Lithium battery from a 1098R and sent it back to its owner (so I can no longer do any further tests). Looks like it got pretty hot.... enough to melt the case of the Lipo battery. Apologies for the poor picture, as you can see the middle of the case is swollen. Stu when...

www.ducati.community

pps it would be nice if we could keep this on topic.

ppps it would be nice if I won the lottery and I guess there’s more chance of that than keeping this on topic or helpful

 

[Exige]

I would like to know why Electrex World (UK's largest Reg/Rec Manufacturer) and Ferret (UK's best known Specialist Motorcycle Electric specialist and Practical Sportsbikes Mag contributor) say categorically: do not fit Lithium to older bikes even if fitted with a new version R/R. And that advice is from this year with the availability of supposed 'new safer' batteries.

I know of approx 10 Ducati's that have 'fired' when fitted with a Lithium Battery from discussion with my customers over the last 6 years - predominantly frying and setting fire to the R/R including cherished 'R' models. So I would also like to know - do you feel lucky punk

I want to fit one to my KR project with a new R/R - indeed I have purchased a Skyrich (well - pinched off my Pani R that went back to Ducati ) so how do I make it safe when the 'experts' (not face-book wankers - general term and no offence offered btw) say otherwise

 

[Barry Hell]

I would like to know why Electrex World (UK's largest Reg/Rec Manufacturer) and Ferret (UK's best known Specialist Motorcycle Electric specialist and Practical Sportsbikes Mag contributor) say categorically: do not fit Lithium to older bikes even if fitted with a new version R/R. And that advice is from this year with the availability of supposed 'new safer' batteries.

I know of approx 10 Ducati's that have 'fired' when fitted with a Lithium Battery from discussion with my customers over the last 6 years - predominantly frying and setting fire to the R/R including cherished 'R' models. So I would also like to know - do you feel lucky punk

I want to fit one to my KR project with a new R/R - indeed I have purchased a Skyrich (well - pinched off my Pani R that went back to Ducati ) so how do I make it safe when the 'experts' (not face-book wankers - general term and no offence offered btw) say otherwise

Fit it inside a container of water, should be fine

 

[Robarano]

The OP referenced the thread about my Shorai giving up the ghost. It actually turned out to be the CTek LiPo charger not liking the battery while it was on the bike. I've updated the thread with the final outcome today.

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

My super expensive Shorai LFX18A-BS12 battery on the 1098R seems to have given up the ghost. 👻 The battery tender has been showing an error for about a month and I got round to turning it off and back on today only for the charger to not detect the battery. Fetch the key and turn the ignition on...

www.ducati.community

 

[AirCon]

I would like to know why Electrex World (UK's largest Reg/Rec Manufacturer) and Ferret (UK's best known Specialist Motorcycle Electric specialist and Practical Sportsbikes Mag contributor) say categorically: do not fit Lithium to older bikes even if fitted with a new version R/R. And that advice is from this year with the availability of supposed 'new safer' batteries.

I know of approx 10 Ducati's that have 'fired' when fitted with a Lithium Battery from discussion with my customers over the last 6 years - predominantly frying and setting fire to the R/R including cherished 'R' models. So I would also like to know - do you feel lucky punk

I want to fit one to my KR project with a new R/R - indeed I have purchased a Skyrich (well - pinched off my Pani R that went back to Ducati ) so how do I make it safe when the 'experts' (not face-book wankers - general term and no offence offered btw) say otherwise

The people who vetted that text on the Electrex and the Ferret websites have a full and fundamental knowledge of electronics, the principles and issues on charging batteries of all types.
They are electronics engineers, spent many years at college and universities. Worked in multidiscipline companies and have decades of experience.
That's why they say that, as it is fact.

I have also come across many Ducati motorcycles that have suffered at the marketing blurb of these Lithium battery companies together with blissfully unaware riders.

There are those who have looked at the issues and upgrade various bits on there older Ducati.
They are aware of the incorrect (over) charging and heat issues on both the battery and generator sets.
Details of these projects are included with this thread.

Now.... this waterless coolant.....

 

[Markduc]

The people who vetted that text on the Electrex and the Ferret websites have a full and fundamental knowledge of electronics, the principles and issues on charging batteries of all types.
They are electronics engineers, spent many years at college and universities. Worked in multidiscipline companies and have decades of experience.
That's why they say that, as it is fact.

I have also come across many Ducati motorcycles that have suffered at the marketing blurb of these Lithium battery companies together with blissfully unaware riders.

There are those who have looked at the issues and upgrade various bits on there older Ducati.
They are aware of the incorrect (over) charging and heat issues on both the battery and generator sets.
Details of these projects are included with this thread.

Now.... this waterless coolant.....

Or was it the legal department that said if you say they are ok and one goes boom you’ll be held responsible

 

[Exige]

Or was it the legal department that said if you say they are ok and one goes boom you’ll be held responsible

Ah, so you mean they are more risky than normal batteries for going boom

 

[Markduc]

Ah, so you mean they are more risky than normal batteries for going boom

Well my rr failed and put out a constant 22v the mottobatt warped and had ripples down the sides
but never burst and still held a charge
so lithium must be more risky

 

[Exige]

Well my rr failed and put out a constant 22v the mottobatt warped and had ripples down the sides
but never burst and still held a charge
so lithium must be more risky

It's predominantly the Reg/Rec's that set alight with the Lithium.
Motobatt are cheap Chinese generic batteries branded & marketed well are they not

 

[Markduc]

It's predominantly the Reg/Rec's that set alight with the Lithium.
Motobatt are cheap Chinese generic batteries branded & marketed well are they not

Dunno but through experience they work and are well built so I’m happy with them
I’ve gone to mosfet reg rec’s bit the ones that fit aren’t certified for lithium so I’ll stick with what i know works
if I wanted to save a kilo or so I would eat less pies

 

[Barry Hell]

Fit it inside a container of water, should be fine

How about stick it in the petrol tank, keep it cool

 

[West Cork Paul]

So far I’ve learned Skyrich & Shido have over charge protection built into the battery; how does that work?

I understand a lithium battery is less tolerant of a variation in r/r output as an r/r breaks down hence an r/r designed for use with a lithium battery has to be used but how does that differ from say a mosfet type r/r?

What’s the difference between a charger designed for use with lithium batteries and one designed for use with LA batteries?

Karen on Facebook stuck one in her 2004 749R years back (to save weight) and it’s not been an issue at all.


ps. Barry, you’re not helping.

 

[West Cork Paul]

Further, having just read all of this thread

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

You've miss spelt "appalling". Yeah, you spell it “Superb” 😋

www.ducati.community

It seems there are lithium batteries and then there are lithium batteries . I see mention of Li-ion, Li-Fe & Li-Po. I thought they were all LiFePo, no?

Also it’s stated a few posts above that only Skyrich and Shido have the ‘safety strip’ on the battery; I presume this is the BMS (battery management system). Is this true? Don’t other makes have this? Karen tells me they ALL have it nowadays. If not how can I tell?

 

[Exige]

Further, having just read all of this thread

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

You've miss spelt "appalling". Yeah, you spell it “Superb” 😋

www.ducati.community

It seems there are lithium batteries and then there are lithium batteries . I see mention of Li-ion, Li-Fe & Li-Po. I thought they were all LiFePo, no?

Also it’s stated a few posts above that only Skyrich and Shido have the ‘safety strip’ on the battery; I presume this is the BMS (battery management system). Is this true? Don’t other makes have this? Karen tells me they ALL have it nowadays. If not how can I tell?

Shido fire Reg Recs, it was a Shido that nearly fired a Ducati Homologation Special of one of my customers luckily a fire extinguisher to hand saved the bike

 

[Duke of Prunes]

I decided that I wasn't going to post a comment on this highly contentious subject .....
....but the facts now prove me to be liar .....

The "problems" with Lithium batteries come from an intrinsic property of Lithium itself ( dendritic growth )
when used in a battery .
That's not to say that shoddy manufacturing doesn't make the problem much worse ,
but it certainly shows that good design can minimize it .

This is a good read -

Advanced Batteries & Energy Storage Research by IDTechEx

This free daily journal provides updates on the latest industry developments and IDTechEx research batteries and energy storage including the technology, the advancements and the applications.

www.advancedbatteriesresearch.com

 

[AirCon]

Further, having just read all of this thread

Shorai Lithium Battery - Given Up The Ghost.

You've miss spelt "appalling". Yeah, you spell it “Superb” 😋

www.ducati.community

It seems there are lithium batteries and then there are lithium batteries . I see mention of Li-ion, Li-Fe & Li-Po. I thought they were all LiFePo, no?

Also it’s stated a few posts above that only Skyrich and Shido have the ‘safety strip’ on the battery; I presume this is the BMS (battery management system). Is this true? Don’t other makes have this? Karen tells me they ALL have it nowadays. If not how can I tell?

Does anyone have and old or failed battery of the above type I can strip part and see what is actually in this "safety strip".

 

[HootOwl]

Does anyone have and old or failed battery of the above type I can strip part and see what is actually in this "safety strp".

Don't visualize an actual strip of metal or plastic as such - its the term used in the industry for the safety cut out that prevents overcharging (from an over zealous reg/rec or the wrong type of charger for example) and that also reduces the chances of thermal runaway if the battery is shorted out

It costs extra to add this fail safe. Cheaper lithiums dont bother with it to save on costs and to be able to sell batteries cheaper.

If you ever open up a lithium motorcycle battery, most of it is unused space. The rest is basically circuit boards and the like

I did have one from a manufacturer for demonstration purposes, but its still down in my office somewhere. If I can find it next time I work from there, I will add it on here but its all very unremarkable. They are nothing like the ones that go in laptops, phones and the like.

 

[AirCon]

Don't visualize an actual strip of metal or plastic as such - its the term used in the industry for the safety cut out that prevents overcharging (from an over zealous reg/rec or the wrong type of charger for example) and that also reduces the chances of thermal runaway if the battery is shorted out

It costs extra to add this fail safe. Cheaper lithiums dont bother with it to save on costs and to be able to sell batteries cheaper.

If you ever open up a lithium battery, most of it is unused space. The rest is basically circuit boards and the like

Yep, got that....
I'm going to tell you what all those circuit boards do... and probably why.

 

[HootOwl]

They are all identical miniature 'batteries' in their own right daisy chained together to make up the nominal 12 volts the battery outputs What I cannot recall for certain is if they are 1.5v each or 2v each. I suspect the latter, and there are 6 in a 12v battery. Whatever the actual tech spec - that's how they work

 

[Exige]

They are all identical miniature 'batteries' in their own right daisy chained together to make up the nominal 12 volts the battery outputs What I cannot recall for certain is if they are 1.5v each or 2v each. I suspect the latter, and there are 6 in a 12v battery. Whatever the actual tech spec - that's how they work

Yes, and most are cheap Chinese ones which the automotive industry don’t touch - they tend to stick to Panasonic and the like
Don’t get me wrong though, if made properly in China by or for Western OEM companies they will be as good as the proper brands.

 

[HootOwl]

I would like to know why Electrex World (UK's largest Reg/Rec Manufacturer) and Ferret (UK's best known Specialist Motorcycle Electric specialist and Practical Sportsbikes Mag contributor) say categorically: do not fit Lithium to older bikes even if fitted with a new version R/R. And that advice is from this year with the availability of supposed 'new safer' batteries.

I know of approx 10 Ducati's that have 'fired' when fitted with a Lithium Battery from discussion with my customers over the last 6 years - predominantly frying and setting fire to the R/R including cherished 'R' models. So I would also like to know - do you feel lucky punk

I want to fit one to my KR project with a new R/R - indeed I have purchased a Skyrich (well - pinched off my Pani R that went back to Ducati ) so how do I make it safe when the 'experts' (not face-book wankers - general term and no offence offered btw) say otherwise

You must have a stable output from the charging system. If its up and down even by micro volts as many Ducati systems are, a lithium battery does not cope well with it. Lead acid types are not foolproof but are more forgiving (They still blow up when overcharged of course).

If you can get a stable regulated charge from your system, it would work OK. The trick is - getting that stable charge on an older Duke. Newer ones are better but still check em out.

 

[Exige]

Does anyone have and old or failed battery of the above type I can strip part and see what is actually in this "safety strip".

I have a Magneti Marelli one that totally died a couple of months ago. Not sure what it’s supposed to have in it. It was fully charged, the totally dead when checked a few weeks later.

 

[AirCon]

I have a Magneti Marelli one that totally died a couple of months ago. Not sure what it’s supposed to have in it. It was fully charged, the totally dead when checked a few weeks later.

Cheers Dude..... I'll strip apart and photo.... and discuss.

 

[Robarano]

I have a Magneti Marelli one that totally died a couple of months ago. Not sure what it’s supposed to have in it. It was fully charged, the totally dead when checked a few weeks later.

Italian innit

 

[Noobie]

I must admit in the past to have only ever bought those batteries reccomended for the bike by the manufacturer. I've never really bought into the "weight saving" of lithium batteries either. Sure if you narrow your vision just to battery versus battery then yes you save weight, but that ignores when in use, the weight saving could just as easily be attained by a rider buying different kit to wear, different parts on the bike or even just taking a dump.

I understand on the racing side of a few grammes here and a few grammes there and unsprung weight etc but even with that, the biggest variable is not the kit but the rider. So given most of the time I see Lithium batteries mentioned are for road bikes, I don't buy the weight adavantage for buying one.

 

[AirCon]

I must admit in the past to have only ever bought those batteries reccomended for the bike by the manufacturer. I've never really bought into the "weight saving" either. Sure if you narrow your vision just to battery versus battery then yes you save weight, but that ignores when in use, the weight saving could just as easily be attained by a rider buying different kit to wear, different parts on the bike or even just taking a dump.

I understand on the racing side of a few grammes here and a few grammes there and unsprung weight etc but even with that, the biggest variable is not the kit but the rider. So given most of the time I see Lithium batteries mentioned are for road bikes, I don't buy the weight adavantage for buying one.

Mate, some of us are still a considerable ratio of the weight on a Harley.... or worse, a GS.