A challenger to the 1098???
- Thread starter Sticky
- Start date
Red Leader
New member
Don't believe the hype!!!
Steve748
New member
Sorry I meant 1298
or 1198..even?
rockjock620
New member
looks just like a honwakisuzaha.........slab sided alloy frame - soooooo 80's.
Gizmo
Forum Geek
yes, they have to sell bikes but have a cut off date of the end of this year so still have 10 months, Ducati had the same problem in 08, they must have only just made the homologation number in time. Everyone is entering the 09 season as the rules change next year, it moves from 1000 to 3000 units sold in 2010, expect to see an 1198S as the race bike at that point hence why it now comes with many of the features of the R (unless they campaign the 1098R for another year but they can't change anything)
Are there any 1198s on the road?
rockjock620
New member
what's one of them?
Steve748
New member
Unlikely as they have only just landed in the dealers and nobody will have theirs reg before the 1st March!
Gizmo
Forum Geek
Wonder if Foggy's bikes are eligible for the 2006 campaign yet then?
the rules were changed because of that, homologation now involves FIM seeing shipping documents/export documents not just the manufacturer claiming they were made. TBH the worst culprit for this was Ducati, the old rules allowed them to homologate tiny numbers like they did with the 955.....
Seen rules being bent in motorsport for years ...... most successful cars in world rallying over the past 20 years? 4 wheel drive turbocharged Pugs and Citroens .... ever tried to buy the road going versions they're based on?
Homologation has been a bit of a joke everywhere ........ be interesting if they said you had to deliver the 'road going units' to the showroom BEFORE entering into competition ......
Homologation has been a bit of a joke everywhere ........ be interesting if they said you had to deliver the 'road going units' to the showroom BEFORE entering into competition ......
Gizmo
Forum Geek
Honda managed to sell enough Blades to homologate in BSB before the season started last year! Homologation period lasts 5 years so, for example, the 1098R was homologated in 08, Ducati can race that spec of bike for another 4 seasons provided it sticks within the rules ie only allowed changes from original spec as manufactured, this years 1098R and last should be thesame bike as was the last 2 years of 999R.
Unless you race standard bikes its all meaningless anyway, WSB is neither production nor prototype, when Ducati build 8 F0 spec bikes each year and have to race against the likes of the Paul Bird team who bought standard Blades from a dealer! and had to modify them it makes a mockery of it being fair competition....
But they've been in WSB for a year.
Martin Ducati Glasgow
New member
I would suggest Birdy's Blades are making a mockery of the standard bike! Birdy knows how to bend the rules as much as anyone!
There is no one racing standard bikes on the BSB / WSBK grid. If they are they are doing so at the back of the grid!
They aren't Ducati only rules remember. Any firm including Honda could build a twin in the same way - God knows they have the money! Certainly in comparison to Ducati.
I'm glad it's not production only - that's Superstock. It's got its place but it's not the punter's favourite.
WSB is only production based. And all the bikes are a lot closer to road spec than ever before thanks to the new regs. To my mind, they have to be better than the road version - that's an enormous part of the magic of the series - a tuned grid showing the potential of what you've got in the garage.
Mart
Gizmo
Forum Geek
there is a world of difference from an F0 series bike handbuilt in a race factory to a bike you buy from a showroom and modified. OK I know how much work Birdy did on those bikes but it simply is not comparable. If you want to see the difference pop down to the new WSB Kawasaki race unit in Penrith, full factory backed and a lot different to how they used to race. Only thing is the engines aren't there, they get built elsewhere (France) shipped in for each race just like Ducati do. Birdy's Blades didn't quite have the same thign last year
As regards relationship to a road going bike? its not even close, about the only bit of the rules that applies (quote from FIM rules)
in effect the bike has to look the same shape as the homologed bike. The rest is virtually open, you can change everything bar the crankcases, got to use same heads but can alter everything moving bar the number of valves and their diameter, twins must use same conrods and certain parts are made from the same material, other than that a factory motor can be almost a MGP spec engine based on production cases and rods. The only part of the chassis that has to be the same is the main frame, nothing else, sub frame, swingarm, forks can all be changed. An F0 series is only related to a 1098R with 4 bits really, crank, head, conrod and main frame. I'd love to think i could have something like that in my garage but the reality is the bike you buy looks like it but is not comparable unlike Superstock.
Superstock is all about racing production bikes and i think the racing would be just as close and exciting if the factories did back it plus it would open it up to more privateer teams, lower costs, bigger grids and more people could relate to it, as it is WSB is simply a half way house between MGP and real world bikes
Personally I prefer one or the other, if its development go down the MGP route, if its production based make it that , the good teams and bikes will still come out on top. If they want to make it real interesting they could throw in a minimum number of hours race use on each engine just to get the manufacturers considering what owners have to think about as well
FIM SBK tech regs attached, check out what can be modified and what can't, you'll not find many bits that can't.....
As regards relationship to a road going bike? its not even close, about the only bit of the rules that applies (quote from FIM rules)
in effect the bike has to look the same shape as the homologed bike. The rest is virtually open, you can change everything bar the crankcases, got to use same heads but can alter everything moving bar the number of valves and their diameter, twins must use same conrods and certain parts are made from the same material, other than that a factory motor can be almost a MGP spec engine based on production cases and rods. The only part of the chassis that has to be the same is the main frame, nothing else, sub frame, swingarm, forks can all be changed. An F0 series is only related to a 1098R with 4 bits really, crank, head, conrod and main frame. I'd love to think i could have something like that in my garage but the reality is the bike you buy looks like it but is not comparable unlike Superstock.
Superstock is all about racing production bikes and i think the racing would be just as close and exciting if the factories did back it plus it would open it up to more privateer teams, lower costs, bigger grids and more people could relate to it, as it is WSB is simply a half way house between MGP and real world bikes
Personally I prefer one or the other, if its development go down the MGP route, if its production based make it that , the good teams and bikes will still come out on top. If they want to make it real interesting they could throw in a minimum number of hours race use on each engine just to get the manufacturers considering what owners have to think about as well
FIM SBK tech regs attached, check out what can be modified and what can't, you'll not find many bits that can't.....
Freak
Is it still summer?
The difference between MGP and WSB and even BSB is now so little it's purely down to bike design the technology shared between the different series is practically the same.
There does need to be a difference between SS and BSB/WSB so I don't see a problem with tuning the hell out of the motor slapping some gas forks and better brakes, clutch, engine components etc but I think the electronics should be simply for fuelling not traction control, launch control, different fuel maps etc
There does need to be a difference between SS and BSB/WSB so I don't see a problem with tuning the hell out of the motor slapping some gas forks and better brakes, clutch, engine components etc but I think the electronics should be simply for fuelling not traction control, launch control, different fuel maps etc
Oh they are, no one else builds a V twin in WSB and Ducati would have left if they didn't change the rules i.e. rule was changed for Ducati. When Honda made a V twin it was to fit in with the established rules, Aprilia now make a V4....Difficult one...do you change the rules to allow all road bike to take part or do manufacturers change the bike to fit in with the rules. I'm no expert but when you are allowed to change the cc of a a bike for racing then thats taking it a bit too far.
By the way, why don't Ducati sell a few more Desmos and then enter them in WSB? (can of worms opened?)
Martin Ducati Glasgow
New member
there is a world of difference from an F0 series bike handbuilt in a race factory to a bike you buy from a showroom and modified. OK I know how much work Birdy did on those bikes but it simply is not comparable. If you want to see the difference pop down to the new WSB Kawasaki race unit in Penrith, full factory backed and a lot different to how they used to race. Only thing is the engines aren't there, they get built elsewhere (France) shipped in for each race just like Ducati do. Birdy's Blades didn't quite have the same thign last year
As regards relationship to a road going bike? its not even close, about the only bit of the rules that applies (quote from FIM rules)
in effect the bike has to look the same shape as the homologed bike. The rest is virtually open, you can change everything bar the crankcases, got to use same heads but can alter everything moving bar the number of valves and their diameter, twins must use same conrods and certain parts are made from the same material, other than that a factory motor can be almost a MGP spec engine based on production cases and rods. The only part of the chassis that has to be the same is the main frame, nothing else, sub frame, swingarm, forks can all be changed. An F0 series is only related to a 1098R with 4 bits really, crank, head, conrod and main frame. I'd love to think i could have something like that in my garage but the reality is the bike you buy looks like it but is not comparable unlike Superstock.
Superstock is all about racing production bikes and i think the racing would be just as close and exciting if the factories did back it plus it would open it up to more privateer teams, lower costs, bigger grids and more people could relate to it, as it is WSB is simply a half way house between MGP and real world bikes
Personally I prefer one or the other, if its development go down the MGP route, if its production based make it that , the good teams and bikes will still come out on top. If they want to make it real interesting they could throw in a minimum number of hours race use on each engine just to get the manufacturers considering what owners have to think about as well
FIM SBK tech regs attached, check out what can be modified and what can't, you'll not find many bits that can't.....
Yeh, Mikey - I know all of that fella. I've seen the regs before. But that's not really my point.
My point is, that nothing running at the sharp end is anything different. Whether it be Airwaves, HM Plant etc etc. The rules are open to interpretation and Birdy has benefited as much as the next man over the years. You never heard him bitching when he was winning! (obviously)
I also agree with Freak. I like to see them tuned using a road bike as the starting point. They have to be a cut above Superstock if you ask me.
Sticky, they are not just Ducati rules. Yes - I agree they were specifically changed for Ducati as everyone knows but every other team that decides to race a twin will also be forced to conform to these rules - like KTM participating in WSBK in 2010. They will be running the KTM RC8R, another 1200 twin!!
I don't wanna bang on about the whole 1200 twin against 1000 four argument again as it's been done to death BUT Ducati build 44,000 twin cylinder bikes a year and Honda build several million. Everything from singles to flat six's and more. Ducati are well aware that Honda have the resources to build a vehicle to conform to these rules if they so wish but they don't for a whole host of reasons.
These rules govern Ducati on their own, only temporarily.
And I'm in agreement with their threat of leaving the championship. The smallest team in the paddock had the most expensive bikes to run. (again been done to death) Fair to say their choice but they only build twins and that's the way it always has been (except the Desmo and the odd Supermono etc) In the same way - if a triple was competing in SBK like the 675 in Supersport, the rules would be different again!
I mean - apart from Bayliss, if the bike was so far better from the rest of the field, it would be a Ducati 1 to 5 every race and it never was!!! Anyone can see that the rules have the manufacturers fairly well balanced. Some bikes were better at different tracks - the way it should be.
Corser, Haga, Bayliss, Checa, Neukirchner were always fighting it out in usual fairing bashing style. The recent tests at Portimao had the top six fastest on 4 different makes (2 x Ducati, 2 x Yamaha, 1 x Honda, 1 x Suzuki) covered by just 0.4 seconds!!!!
I ask you, what's wrong with that? That's why the series is so popular!
As i've said before - I don't want to see Ducati winning against other Ducati's, I want to see them beat the rest of the grid with as fair a set of rules as possible mixing up the engine styles.
Mart
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Forget the engine size thing and threats of spitting out dummies if the rules change (either way!) - if Bayliss & Biaggi had been on Suzukis, they'd have been at the front; had they been on Yams, they'd have been at the front; even had those two been on the Kwak donkeys, they'd have still been scrapping around for podium finishes ........ the beauty of bike racing is, unlike F1 cars, the rider is 90% of the package, not 10% ..... and long may that continue :thumbs: