Another 900 GTS story. The Black Pig

well i suppose the kick start engine has a different flywheel and no starter ring and different clutch cover so i imagine the problem is there ( the very first gt's). The Bosch engined GTS was a rarity. I have never seen one. they came out at the same time ducati pulled the GTS from the market in 79/80 I think.Personally i still think an 860 runs fine with a Rita. They are easy to adjust as they are outside the engine so you can run the engine and use a timing light. They are period for the age of bike and they work a lot better than a standard ignition. They are also a fraction of the price of a modern system and you can always change it later very easily if you don't get on with it or find something better.

Hi Bob, i have a pump with a missing gear set now but you would probably be better keeping your set for spares just in case as i have eight pumps in stock and have never sold one in my life :) many thanks though :)
 
Someone can shoot me down but I can't see why an electric start makes any difference at all to an ignition system that was working with Ducati Ellectronica igntion.

The solenoid and other nonsense has *absolutely nothing to do with* the ignition.

But then again I may have missed something - it won't be the first time
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Paul - the problem is that the flywheel has the starter ring on it. On your build with the Silent Hektik you have dispensed with the flywheel - but it's no problem as you are not fitting the starter - unless this stator will fit inside the flywheel?

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I want to keep the starter which means I can't drop the flywheel - and the SH system can't accommodate this. From what I can see on the Sachse website I don't think that system can either. It's hard to believe that all E/S GT and GTS are either running on standard or Lucas systems!

Martin - thanks. I'll drop the Czech guys a mail to see what they suggest. I was hoping for more of a "plug and play" system but maybe they have experience on this model.

I know from when I got the bike that there was only a dull yellow spark from the Ducati Ellectronica system so I think it's too risky to reuse.

Thanks to all,
Derek
 
If the Ducati pick-ups test out ok (faults there are often supposedly due to heat affecting wires and connections) maybe you could use those to drive an ignite system? After all, what we are actually wanting is just a fancy switch for the coils, is it not? Could you maybe fit Bosch pick-ups and rotor? It does seem weird that you have an electric-start GT with Ducati ignition, some sort of part-bin Friday special. Good luck, anyway
 
According to Ian Falloon there were ca 2,200 GTS and ca 11000 GT with E/S all built to this spec with Elletronica ignition system and Electric Start so I'm assuming someone out there must have replaced the ignition system with something more modern!
 
Thanks Neil - that looks very much like the Sachse system.
Going back to the Sachse website it does look like there's the option of both kickstart and electric start, which is great news if confirmed. I completely missed that. If Andrew has it in stock I'd better snap it up.

This is the Sachse page where it shows the system fitted on a kickstart system without the flywheel. It looks the same as the Mdina picture. But if the flywheel does fit, how the hell do you adjust the timing? It would mean taking off the flywheel. Anyway, sounds more promising. I was having nightmares about Paddy sneaking into my garage and fitting a Lucas carbuncle to my lovely polished engine....

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I could be wrong but is it not set for TDC and the electronics do the rest

from fitting instructions

Ignition adjustment:
move the horizontal piston about to BDC. Now turn on the ignition switch and continue turning until the red LED turns on first and then turns off. The piston is now an estimated 10° before TDC. Now comes the slightly annoying part of the setting. The side cover must be removed and the aluminum disk must be turned by this amount counterclockwise. Then again as above. The aim is that the LED goes out right in the TDC. If the correct position is found, all three set screws in the aluminum disk must be tightened (with medium strength thread lock)
 
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Just back from trying to sneak in to Derek's garage....:) Andrew is away for a couple of days. I thin k he said that the Sachse company was in the process of being sold so i am sure they will be back on the market but probably under a new name. I must try and pay more attention :) anyway it doesnt matter as he seems to have a couple in stock..
 
Thanks Bob - yes sounds like once it's set initially then it's all done and dusted.
I sent a mail to Andrew and got his out of office. Let's see what he says next week. Anyway, the Lucas Rita nightmare begins to recede...
I also emailed Sachse as it said on the website no problem to receive emails. I got a personal reply from Cristal Sachse saying that the business would be up and running again in the next few weeks - which made me feel embarrassed to have bothered her.
 
Well the Czech guys are pretty keen. I got the following reply from Ignite..

Our units also need same pickup system for work.
You need something like on enclosed picture. You would have to make mechanical assembly of such a system yourself.
We can offer you ignition TCIP4 standard. It will be programed for your bike.
Rotor one lobe diameter 70, 50 mm
two inductive pickups IP6 or S01
You can use original coils or we can offer you two coils IC-TCI-S.
Could you see picture in enclosure. It is in position 10 degree for TDC.
You would have to make mechanical assembly yourself. We supose than you will place pickup system on crankshaft.
If you send us your choice, your address and your phone number for DHL we will send you invoice.
Prices
TCIP4 standard 133 eur
Inductive pickups IP6 2x15 eur
Rotor 5 eur
coil IC-TCI-S 2x29 eur
We can also offer you USB-COM cable for changing parameters of unit from PC. Price is 14 eur.
Freitage DHL to EU 23 eur

Regards

Jan Matous

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Trouble is I don't see either of the pickup types fitting inside the flywheel. Otherwise the whole thing is less than half the price of the German systems. I'm visiting Czech republic in 3 weeks and I pass right by the door of Ignite, so I might go and take a look.
In the meantime I'll see what Mdina says.
 
You get everywhere. are you an international man of mystery or a Wallace Arnold coach driver? I can just see you explaining to a coachload on the 'Ann Frank' tour why they have to make a small diversion to visit Jan Biggelar...On Bosch squarecases the pickups fit inside the cover and the rotor is on the end of the shaft outside the flywheel, gears etc I think that you might need the mounting plate and a rotor with a bump in the right place but it could work. if you are getting a rotor made, get a ring made that fits over it that is as thick as the correct airgap and you can use it to set the pick-ups. You could then use their pick-ups (Czech-ups?), coils etc.
 
Ha Ha! I was once visiting my customer in Mosjoen, Norway (the world's most northerly textile mill - now sadly closed) and when I got to my Hotel there was an Eddie Brown bus in the car park! Surreal - it takes 10 hours and 3 flights to get there by air! The driver was from Wakefield and on a 6 week tour of Scandinavia - and he was well p*ssed off with his bus full of grumpy old ladies by then. Probably murdered one or two before he got home. Put me off bus driving as an alternative career path!
 
Bit of a stall on progress on the rebuild – but plenty of activity nonetheless.

• Carbs stripped and sent to Carb Clean in Guildford. He puts everything through an Ultrasonic Bath, then soda blasts the outsides. It will be interesting to see the result as they were a real mess.
• Good for Paddy who did a very reasonable deal on a brand new Keihan exhaust system, PS15 master cylinder, brake lever and a few other bits and bobs. He even did an “on the spot” bearing removal of that pesky blind bearing from one of my crankcases. Saves me getting the special tool. Many thanks Paddy
• Another bit of luck on the brake calipers which Paul (Vacant Possession) is supplying. Thanks Paul.
• 2nd set of crankcases cleaned up nicely and I’ll use these as they are original. Anybody need a clean set of crankcases?
• Andy the engine builder is measuring and examining all the bits and rebuilding the heads.
• Both cranks taken to Godden Engineering. Gary pressed out the pin of the preferred crank and said it’s actually in quite good condition, but the case hardening is just starting to go so better to replace with a new pin and bearings. I made it into the inner sanctum at Godden as was amazed at the number of Vincents being worked on. They were even building a brand new engine from all new parts! Pity I didn’t have my camera or I’d have have asked to take a photo. Top place!
• New seat cover just arrived from Road and Race in Australia and I have to say it really does look authentic. I’ll get it recovered by RK Leighton.
• Gear lever (finally found one for $45 Aus), fork top nuts and brake splitter arrived from Ian Gowanloch. Also on the way is a Darmah wiring loom, both handlebar switches and speedo / tacho cables. Ian is an excellent source of spares for Bevels and trades on ebay as Italspares. He’s no longer involved with Gowanloch Ducati, but has 10 containers of spares he’s slowly selling off at very reasonable prices.
• Only problem with buying from Australia is that usually they call you into the Royal Mail sorting office and find an excuse to charge you duty or VAT. Sometimes you can get away with it. Anbody got any tips on avoiding these charges?
• Andrew at Mdina confirms that he has a Sachse electronic ignition to fit with the starter ring flywheel – so this is the way I’ll go with the ignition.
All good stuff – but no progress on the bike.

A bit of a bizarre experience this week while visiting the European Workwear Exhibition in Düsseldorf. I couldn’t understand why this appeared on a stand of a company selling safety shoes…

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Yes it's Andrea Dovizioso's genuine Moto GP mount. The Őhlins and carbon brakes would have looked good on my old banger!

And Martin, especially for you I made a short detour and parked my bus to take in the Mőhne Dam. 16/5/1943 must have been a hell of a night for those down the valley as well as those in the sky. No BOB memorial flight welcome here, but an interesting place to visit.

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That's the thing Paddy - typical Germans had it back in normal operation by September 1943. Interesting that on the boards plotting it's history there's hardly a mention of it being destroyed - just one sentence. They certainly don't dwell on things like we (and the French) do.
 
I seem to recall that it was disbanded at least once before. I just watched zero dark thirty about the Bin Laden hit and contrasted the attitude on display there with one that finds its soldiers guilty of murder. It's a conundrum, for sure, holding on to high moral ground that isn't really there, but nobody who hasn't experienced war at a personal level can comment or judge.
 
Paintwork by Paddy's recommendation Barnham Vehicle Services near to Bury St Edmonds. They are the guys who Made In Italy use. Contact Paul Goshawk on 01284 728860 Bit of a trek for me and probably not the cheapest but the photographs simply don't do justice to the quality of finish and the complex colour variation as the light hits it at different angles. I couldn't resist wheeling out the old girl and giving her a bit of fresh air.

My wife has given the whole thing the once over and declared that henceforth she will not be referred to as "The Black Pig". She now has the moniker of "Bluebelle" - with an e at the end on account of her feminine sophistication....

Still a long way to go!

Paul reckonned it has been magenta, yellow, red and blue in the past.
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There were a lot of imperfections requiring fillling.
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I think he said there are 6 coats primer, 3 coats silver, 3 candy blue, 6 laquer
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Badges came from Road and Race in Australia. Side panel decals a bit more local from Classic Vehicle Transfers, Wooton under Edge.

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Yes, it's all looking very nice - except for that yawning hole in the middle....

On the more technical side I am now in possession of a Sachse Electronic Ignition of the correct type to retain the flywheel / starter ring. Lucky that Andrew at Mdina had one remaining in stock. Although the Czech guys I'm sure could have made a similar system much cheaper, it all seemed a bit experimental for me.

One point regarding the ignition is that the coils weren't included (the are on the Silenk Hektik) so I need to buy coils. I'm not sure what I need here. A basic 12v coil seems to be less than £20 whereas those fancy Dynacoils are nearer £100. Do I need more than the regular standard coils? It looks like they will sit nicely on the brackets vacated by the Ellectronica boxes.

The engine is waiting for it's Godden crank to be finished - although Andy is not letting the grass grow under his feet. Everything has been measured and inspected. The oil pump was a horror story...

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Not sure what's been grinding around in there but it's finished. Luckily I had another from the spare engine and Andy declared this to be pefectly OK. Andy wanted to have a "dry run" assembling the gearbox and bevel drives to get the shims and tolerances correct. Although there's nothing inside, it's starting to look a bit more like an engine...

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Note the nice Triumph T100 engine behind, waiting for it's owner to pick it up. Looks like a toy compared the mighty bevel twin.
 
Motor looking good ( i have a set of new oil pump gears but as you have another good pump you will not need them )
watch the timing cog does not fall out the T100 if moved without cover
used to use a small jubilee clip to hold it on
 
I'm a bit disappointed not to get feedback from you guys on the type of coils required, but mainly for Martin's interest as I was just finishing the Franz Kafka bus tour I took the inmates on a short detour to visit Ignitech Ignition on the way to Moravia.
I've already got the Sachse system, but no coils - so I thought they might be able to supply something suitable.

First impressions weren't promising...

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But as so often happens in these places, all the good stuff was on the inside. There were about half a dozen guys all building and testing ignition systems - most impressive. Here is a little test jig running a single cylinder system

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It seemed to me these guys are very competent at their trade and could supply a bespoke system for any 12v bike (I asked about 6v as my 250 runs contact breakers).
They are also much better value for money than the German systems.

Anyway they fixed me up with a pair of "traditional" 12V coils suitable for inductive Ignition and said they'd be well up to what I need. And they chucked in a metre of HT lead - for the princely sum of €30 all in!

I would recommend anyone who needs a new ignition system to send them an email. Website is here http://www.ignitech.cz/en/

Now my only concern is what my coils will look like to the hand luggage scanner at Brno airport tomorrow...
 
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