Another 900 GTS story. The Black Pig

Paddy, if you want to relieve me of mine I would be most grateful ;) The hackery involved on a GT/GTS really isn't worth it when better discreet electronic ignitions are available IMHO.

Fine on (someone elses) SS or Rep.
 
Dont throw it out :) i have one but like most its missing its plastic cover. They were always the week spot and you cant get them any more. I sold my last complete one a couple of weeks ago from the site for £150.00. You can sell them all day long on ebay.
I wanted to test mine before i sold them and i rigged them up on the bench with a battery and just turned the magnet slowly by hand past the pick up and the size and crack of the spark at the plug made me jump. I wasnt really expecting that ! I thought it might work if i was lucky and i looked carefully......lol, turning it at about 1rpm it sparked like a gun shot. Very impressive.

This is the picture from my site

I would imagine they work with the stock coils as well but i don't know ? You can still download the fitting instructions which is what i did to help sell the kit.i
 
The silent Hektic has new pick-ups so is better than the ignitec in that respect. My hesitation there is that the tool to set the pick-ups up costs so much and is an extra that you wouldn't use much. The one great advantage of the RITA I can see is that you can set the pick-ups without taking the casing off. It will rotate at half-engine-speed which may or may not be a good thing and I think that they are still made as Moiras. (The bits are, if not the Fittings) If you have an intact plastic cover why not take a mould off and have them reproduced? From what we have learned in the last few years I reckon that the subtleties of an ignition curve set up by somebody who knows using a Dyno would give much improved results. If all you want to do is get a reliable alternative to an old Bosch then a RITA/MOIRA would be good. I like the idea simply because it would look 'period' as a typical 'endurance race' addition. (and it would be another iconic sticker for the tank-seat unit)
 
http://www.hoppybikes.co.uk/moira.htm tells you a bit about the new amplifier and points you to Mistral engineering. Some BSA B50 owners are also involved:
Just a swift buzz from the foothills of the West Essex Alps,to let you all know that the MOIRA system that we've been developing with Mistral Engineering is progressing well under field testing .
There is a rev-limited version out on test, which was precise as you like on the test bench here.
B.50 kit price wil be around the £220 mark, we think.
The MOIRA is a straight replacement for the Lucas AB11 amplifier as it stands,and is designed to function with the standard RITA pickup arrangement.but does a variety of handy little things in addition, such as shutting itself off six seconds after having not detected a triggering pulse. The next pulse switches it back on again.The current used is around 2.2A at cranking speed, diminishing thereafter to around 1.8A , when running at 12.5V.
The low speed spark is designed to be very strong, as an aid to better starting.
Mistral Engineering are on +44(0)2085012161.
 
Here is my NCR sporting his Rita, whatever people say about them and the ignition curve this started first kick and went quicker than any bevel i ever rode and was a match for an 851.



Note plug leads :cool:
 
Dont want to pee on your fireworks but that link has been around for years and not been updated, i know Lacey sell a single version of the Moira but i have never seen a twin. worth a phone call though ?
 
ducatipaddy said:
Here is my NCR sporting his Rita, whatever people say about them and the ignition curve this started first kick and went quicker than any bevel i ever rode and was a match for an 851.

Note plug leads :cool:
Click to expand...
Twin plug, very nice! What the 'eck is that brass plug just south of the alternator cable gland? I expect it is an oil output for an oil cooler, but how does that work internally?
 
God knows :)
Its a long story but its another one i bought in bits, it came from Honk Kong.
The crankcases and cam bearing covers and alternator cover etc were all already drilled.It had a high flow pump in it and the take offs you can see on the oil filter..It was set up for a complete external oil feed with two feeds/jets directly above the layshaft and mainshaft in the top of the crankcases. I fitted a BL mini spin on oil filter and a distribution point on it for the feeds with different size pipes and restrictors. I used the alternator fitting as a blow off return for over pressure so as not to over load the pump.
this was mega high comp, it was 1000cc with a close ration box and 41mm carbs.
As i say i bought in in a few boxes....

This is how it came.....chrome molly Verlicchi frame and swing arm..weighed nothing :)

but this is another story for another thread. Must stop hijacking peoples build threads. Wont happen again.;)
 
Keep hijacking by all means, that NCR is an enticing blend of the rare and the ancient.
I am guessing that the Moira is just an amplifier update and that they won't have bothered remaking the actual fitting for a bevel. It is only as the prices go up that that kind of investment becomes a more practical proposition and that is a rather recent phenomenum. There is no website for Mistral so far as I can see but I'm keeping looking as I have a feeling that they have been taken over by another company so far as ignitions go.
What sort of butchery is involved in fitting a Rita, Vacant?
The twin-plug heads would be a good way of getting a more even burn in what is a very old-fashioned cylinder head shape, mostly if you wanted to run high compressions on the edge of detonation and keep all the mixture you'd got in with your 'Kevin'd' ports in the chamber and not just straight down the exhaust. In circumstances like that, with a modern cam profile coupled with the rapid closing that you can get with a desmo, a programmable ignition would really come into its own. On the other hand, getting an old bevel to fire it's worn-out Dellorto pumper fed gushings is a different thing.
 
you have to chop the r/h side panel about on the 860

lr128.jpg
 
Hooray! I'm not using any sidepanels, not the chopped ones that came with the bike or the virgo intacta ones I got from Paddy a year or so ago. I can feel a Vacant PM coming on...
 
NeilD said:
you have to chop the r/h side panel about on the 860[qimg]http://www.eurospares.com/lr128.jpg[/qimg]
Click to expand...
Yes indeedy - which is why RH side panels for GT/GTS's go for more than LH ones on eBay.

I think the way Lucas designed the take-off from the bevel was a really good idea, no wasted spark etc., However I wish they had redesigned the rev counter drive housing instead and used that.

So I have no problem with the functionality of the contemporary Lucas. I do like the 16 pre-programmed advance profiles available with the Silent Hektik, Here is the blurb I fell for...
  • 16bit operating system of the third generation 20ähriger development maturity
  • Computation of parameters in 330 ° / 30 ° intervals every revolution
  • Switch with 16 advance curves for normal double-ignition + for + sports tourer
  • with 16 ignition coil charging curves as a function of engine speed and vehicle voltage
  • Onboard diagnostic LED for checking the ignition box and the sensor
  • Mosfet amplifiers with minimum losses and high switching speed
  • Ignition box in SMD design 85x55x21mm, -40 ° C to 100 ° C, 6V to 18V
  • magnetic sensors with approval Automotive => -40 ° C to 140 ° C
  • High-energy ignition coils for absolutely solid performance from low speeds
  • Power plugs and spark plug wire with welded steel spiral core
  • all systems with 24 burn-in and 3-fold function check of the ignition box
 
Well I don't understand the above, but the Silent Hektik seems like the right system to me.
Even if available I couldn't contemplate sticking that Rita carbuncle on my back cylinder head and chopping the side panel. It would be unworthy of my beautiful creation.

Paddy - tell me, what did Delia think of the Verlicchi frame?
 
Ah well you see the NCR came in so many bits i used one of her recipes to put it back together. Obviously an Italian, some sort of paella i think it was ? :)

Initially i considered using a stool instead of a back wheel



I eventually decided to use a wheel but settled on building it slightly out of focus instead

 
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Finally the good news that the primary drive and flywheel have given way on my spare (original) engine. Bob at Cotswold Engine Reconditioners eventually had to resort to cutting through the gear to release it. No amount of pulling, vibration, shock and heat was effective. £20 in cash please! Lucky I have another flywheel…

DSC_0106.JPG


Crankcases, crank and gearbox all seem OK. I’ll get the cases cleaned up and certainly use these as they are the originals.

Now for the rebuild. My original plan was to use Tim Hyett of Motovation, a local Ducati specialist. However, over the last couple of months I’ve had plenty of good help and advice from my mate Pat and his Dad Andy has proved to be a real gem. Andy’s been racing motorcycles for 48 years (well I think now he restricts himself to Parades) and he’s a true mechanical engineering specialist of the old school. He’s removed rounded off allen bolts, released mangled exhaust flanges, stuck valves and camshaft nuts. He’s built Ducati racing singles but not had a go at a twin. Anyway he’s been talked into rebuilding the Black Pig engine. I think he has the right level of mechanical empathy to advise what can and what cannot be reused.

First job was to assess both available cranks. I was hoping to avoid an expensive crank rebuild, but ready to follow Andy’s advice. We had a consultation this afternoon which also included Andy’s Swedish house guest Lars – another veteran G50 racer.
Much measuring with dial gauges, inspection with torches and um and arhing followed. Both cranks were inspected and the results were not absolutely conclusive. Crank 1 from the engine in the bike had an unacceptable 7 thou play in one rod. Crank 2 had no play, but has been in the open air (without barrels attached) for 20-30 years. Lars seemed to be under the impression that the engine would need to rev to 10,000 rpm continuously. Andy had the last word and decided it should be afforded the luxury of a new big end. Godden Engineering here we come.

Here’s Andy and Lars considering the options.
Andy1.JPG


A broader view of Andy’s garden shed. Some shed!
Andy2.JPG
 
interesting Derek, it doesn't look from the photo that there was any corrosion holding that primary on ? I have a couple of 860s to strip this week and i hope they come off easier than yours !! i did a Darmah yesterday and that cam e off with a puller and a sharp "tap". Strangely i couldn't get the oil pump gear off the pump and used the puller on that and it sheared the oil pump shaft......but the gear stayed on :) luckily i have more pumps than i know what top do with :)
 
I followed the instructions in an old 'Mechanics' article and tapped all round the flywheel with a ball-pein till nothing happened then got MMT involved who made a 'fixture' and then walloped the thing much harder than I dare but with lots more precision. It popped right off! Or was that the other flywheel?
Why not send both cranks to Godden as they may be able to re-use the rods?
 
Silent Hektik marketing blurb...

OK, my second stab at interpreting the Silent Hektik blurb into English...

  • 16bit operating system on its third generation after twenty years development
  • ignition parameters calculated every 330 ° / 30 ° per crankshaft revolution
  • 16 advance retard curves available at the flick of a switch
  • 16 ignition separate coil charging curves dependent on engine speed/voltage
  • onboard diagnostic LED for checking the ignition unit and sensor
  • MOSFET technology with minimum losses and high switching speed
  • ignition unit in SMD format 85x55x21mm, -40 ° C to 100 ° C, 6V to 18V
  • magnetic sensors with automotive approval for use between -40 ° C to 140 ° C
  • high-energy ignition coils for absolutely solid performance from low speeds
  • Power and spark plug wire implemented with soldered spiral core steel wire
  • all systems burnt in for 24 hours with a triple check of the ignition unit
 
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I can help with some of this :)

magnetic sensors with automotive approval for use between -40 ° C to 140 ° C.... you can use it in the UK

onboard diagnostic LED for checking the ignition unit and sensor ...its got a warning light

ignition parameters calculated every 330 ° / 30 ° per crankshaft revolution...the pick ups are on the crankshaft

ignition unit in SMD format 85x55x21mm....its in a small box

all systems burnt in for 24 hours with a triple check of the ignition unit...it got a 23hr warranty
 
Just building up the starter motor / clutch cover assembly. I have a problem with the forked part which moves the gear into mesh with the flywheel gear. On the part below the forks are not fixed to the shaft (the joint by the pencil), they just swivel and I'm assuming that can't be correct. I'm sure Pat will tack it together for me, but what's the correct relationship between the forks and the arm connected to the solenoid? I'm assuming it's 90 degrees, but would appreciate feedback.

DSC_0108.JPG
 
Thanks Bob - it's a bit tricky to see in the photo, but I'm assuming the top arm is facing directly towards the camera? I'll get mine fixed in this position.

After all the hard VP put in on the Silent Hektik system (and also Paddy for translating it into English) - I got a mail from SH saying they only make a system for kickstart engines. Pah!
And Sachse is closed for bereavement. That makes things a bit tricky on the ignition front.

I'm also a bit confused as to whether Sachse actually make a system which still allows usage of the standard electric start flywheel The Sachse system listed for the GTS is for kickstart only. They list a Ducati Bevel Bosch system (mine has Ducati Electrotechnica). Is thre any difference in the flywheel on the later Bosch engines?

This is what it shows on the website
ducati_900ss_2.jpg

ducati_900ss%2520%25281%2529.jpg

ducati_900ss_3.jpg

Pictures are a bit small but I don't know how to enlarge thenm
 
Flats on shaft are parallel to fork
Fly wheels are different and bosch engines have sprag clutch on starter
they are darmah engines without desmo top ends and gear change all on the side no crossover shaft or cut off shaft in the case
 
Yes, thanks I understand it now - even if Paddy's beautiful crisp photo has it the wrong way round.

But does this mean I'm stuffed on the replacement ignition system. Paddy - what say you?
 
Someone can shoot me down but I can't see why an electric start makes any difference at all to an ignition system that was working with Ducati Ellectronica igntion.

The solenoid and other nonsense has *absolutely nothing to do with* the ignition.

But then again I may have missed something - it won't be the first time ;)
 
You could try Ignitech in Czechoslovakia. http://www.ignitech.cz/en/
From what I can see they make a programmable electronic ignition that uses the standard triggers and coils. They sell replacement triggers and matching coils if yours are toast. They respond well to emails in English so it might be worth dropping them a line. All their stuff is sent DHL so its quite quick.

Here's a link to an australian who has used one: http://www.ducati.ms/forums/14-vintage/34482-czech-ignitech-ignition-system-old-ducatis.html
 
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