There is usually a small hole in the thermostat that allows a little bit of coolant to flow even with the thermostat fully closed. Your original post said that the radiators were cold when he came off of the track. At startup everything is cold and the thermostat will open more and more as it approaches the set temp. If you ride with the thremostat closed, the radiators will still get warm/hot, especiall at track rpm's. The head will expand more in different areas where the actual combustion happens, the coolant removes the excessive heat and keeps all of the head at approx the same temp. Without proper water flow, the center, top of thw head where the valves, especially the exhaust valves get exremely hot and will expand more and faster than the rest causing warping, cracks and the failure of the head gasket. I would see if the waterpump impeller is intact. He may get lucky and just need a head and gasket but with coolant in the oil, the main bearings may be damaged, the head may be cracked or warped or the valve seals may be damaged along with the cam bearings. If he had just been street riding with normal operating rpm there would be a better chance of survival but track rpm and 15 min session times at said RPM, I would not hold much hope for anything but motor replacement/rebuild but some get lucky. You could put a used or new head on and the crank bearings could fail on the next or near future ride. No way to tell how much damage was done without full inspection. Ad this is a track bike, I personally, would not trust taking it out on track again without checking everything but thats just the way I think. Good luck!
Coolant in spark plug channel
- Thread starter West Cork Paul
- Start date
Funny you should say that, judging by his accent I think he might very well be from that neck of the woods.They're the worst, Mock paddies( or as we call them in Essex, "the people to the right of the A12")
Unfortunately, given the layout, that looks like the only explanation. Though if so that crack must also involve an oil way if coolant is getting into the oil. Potentially even worse news. And you have to wonder how and why it has cracked.
Edit: What @9103 said with his proper explanation. Doesn't sound good.
He first contacted me because he found coolant in the V plug chamber and couldn’t work out how it got there. I’ve no idea when he last used the bike either on a track or (illegally) on the road, all he said was he first noticed it ‘a few weeks ago’ and he’s been trying to find its source since. He gave up his quest and came to me.
When I was doing some basic tests in the workshop to replicate the issue that’s when I noticed the massive difference between what the dash said was the engine temp (110c) and the fact the rads were still only just warm. Accurate temp measurements indicated their actual temp (27-28c) versus the 110c of the engine according to the dash. The bike was just on an axle stand idling as the temp rose.
I suspect this is how the fracture in the cylinder head has occurred, ie significant overheating of the cylinder head.
I suspect there’s a microscopic fissure across the coolant jacket but away from the actual cylinder head ie on the other side of the envelope through which the coolant should flow. That fissure, as has been suggested, extends from the bottom of the spark plug chamber up to camshaft/valve train area. Coolant is pushing out into both areas. Where it meets the oil in the valve train area that’s were they’re mixing and from where the emulsified oil/coolant drops back down into the sump.
Very good points and worth serious consideration.
Another very good point and all the more reason for me to walk away from this one (as others said at the outset, and those voices were right). If I’m the last person to have touched it and something such as you suggest occurs, the blame will undoubtedly get laid at my feet
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You don't need the hassleVery good points and worth serious consideration.
Another very good point and all the more reason for me to walk away from this one (as others said at the outset, and those voices were right). If I’m the last person to have touched it and something such as you suggest occurs, the blame will undoubtedly get laid at my feet
Very wise. I knew an independant workshop who did a basic service on a 1200 MTS which subsequently suffered the dreaded snapped crank syndrome. All the bloke did was change the oil, filters and plugs but the owner tried to take him to court, probably because he thought it would be an easier touch for some sort of payout than trying to get anything out of Ducati. Definitely hand it back.Very good points and worth serious consideration.
Another very good point and all the more reason for me to walk away from this one (as others said at the outset, and those voices were right). If I’m the last person to have touched it and something such as you suggest occurs, the blame will undoubtedly get laid at my feet
From the sound of it, the owner is likey to be the sort of person who'd try it on with you rather than accept that he's lunched his engne through his own negligence and abuse on track.
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No, he was saying the whole thing was upside down, just not in plain English.
I'm curious to see what the compression values look like to you. Do you check them on a hot engine, cold or both for comparison? I'd be afraid to run it with the oil that color though.
Did this person offer any other info...whether or not they had a loss of performance, blowing white exhaust(did you see some?), dirty coolant(exhaust gasses), having to continually top up coolant? Could it have seized, shut down, and he got it running again? I don't know if it's possible but I would try to get a peek down the hole and see what the cylinder wall looks like.
From what you've said the thermostat(or seal?) could be bad but it does seem as though damage has been done and worst case an engine rebuild might be in order.
Excuse my ignorance, I'm interested in the outcome.
I’m going to put up a load of photos here. I took the V valve train cover off today.
As was expected it’s full of watery emulsified oil.
Having dried out the spark plug hole I also pulled the plug, it was soaking wet, wet with what suspiciously looked like coolant and not just wet at the electrodes but over the length of the thread too.
Inside the valve train were droplets of what looks like water
and a clear and distinct droplet of coolant.
And, the head of the piston is soaking wet too.
That’s taken with the borescope down there.
Yet, the V cylinder runs. I checked the manifold temp yesterday, it’s the same as the H cylinder, about 270c.
There are no obvious and apparent cracks I can see with the borescope. I suspect the head gasket has gone hence unbuned coolant in the chamber after the engine is turned off. Clearly it’s f&&ked big time.
Chances are the H cylinder is the same but that won’t be known unless the rads are removed and the H valve train cover taken off and the spark plug chamber there examined as well.
@Faith, the coolant in the rads is crystal clear and pink. The rads are full, take off the cap and it’s full to the brim. The coolant in the engine has not been circulating to the rads and that is what I believe has caused the problem.
As was expected it’s full of watery emulsified oil.
Having dried out the spark plug hole I also pulled the plug, it was soaking wet, wet with what suspiciously looked like coolant and not just wet at the electrodes but over the length of the thread too.
Inside the valve train were droplets of what looks like water
and a clear and distinct droplet of coolant.
And, the head of the piston is soaking wet too.
That’s taken with the borescope down there.
Yet, the V cylinder runs
. I checked the manifold temp yesterday, it’s the same as the H cylinder, about 270c. There are no obvious and apparent cracks I can see with the borescope. I suspect the head gasket has gone hence unbuned coolant in the chamber after the engine is turned off. Clearly it’s f&&ked big time
. Chances are the H cylinder is the same but that won’t be known unless the rads are removed and the H valve train cover taken off and the spark plug chamber there examined as well.
@Faith, the coolant in the rads is crystal clear and pink. The rads are full, take off the cap and it’s full to the brim. The coolant in the engine has not been circulating to the rads and that is what I believe has caused the problem.
How are your engine building skills Paul 
I'd say nothing less if your names going to be on it 
I'd say nothing less if your names going to be on it
As @Barry Hell is correct, and as I don’t want to rebuild this engine, nor do I really have the Clean Room facilities one needs, and as the owner is English and is back & forth between here and there regularly in his van, who would people suggest as the most suitable place for him to take his bike ?
Ducati Service and Preparation for Road and Race Bikes
Louigi Moto is the UK's number one independent Ducati specialist.
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I'd drop it overboard about 1 mile or 1.6kms outside of holyhead harbour
Wayne!
Good way of getting that troublesome airlock out of your cooling system, I suppose. Though unless the rear piston was a TDC when the bike was hoisted I anticipate a considerable amount of smoke when it's restarted.
I thought of them but I think their sweet spot is the pre Panigale bikes. I’ll check with them though.Ducati Service and Preparation for Road and Race Bikes
Louigi Moto is the UK's number one independent Ducati specialist.
Depending how much he wants to travel when he's in the U.K.
www.mssperformance.com
There is of course Nelly, depending if he's read this thread
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There is of course Nelly, depending if he's read this thread
I woulsd love to see the cam bearings as the coolant will dilute the oil and (possibly) score the bearings. My other concern would be the possibility of hydolock on the "wet" cyl. It is possible that very little coolant was actually leaking thru a failed head gasket and just passed thru as steam, the actual soaking may have been after the motor was shut down and it just leaked in to the cyl as the motor cooled. The threads on the plug could have gotten wet from the coolant that dripped down the plug hole and got on the threads as you removed them, the rest was wet from the flooded cyl. I would have to look at the big end bearings anf main bearings as the crank case was full of milky oil/coolant mix. Your evidence points to overheat causing high pressure and possible head distortion leading to head gasket failure so that explains why you did not find oil in the radiator. This would make me doubt the cause was a crack in the head or cyl but they may have occured after the fact due to high heat and uneven expansion. I cant see any other option but a full strip down/inspection or a replacement motor. I would never be able to ride that bike at speed without worrying about failure otherwise.
Just out of curiosity, can you run the motor with the radiator cap off? I would bet you get bubbles coming up even if the thermostat is still stuck closed.
Just out of curiosity, can you run the motor with the radiator cap off? I would bet you get bubbles coming up even if the thermostat is still stuck closed.
Ducati John, near Leeds. Might now be known as Bologna v twins after Ducati got shirty with him.
TB