Lily
Pink Totty
Better brakes?
have you ridden an old monster
accept it, it's not the bikes it's the riders and you get novices and idiots on every make.
Knockhill??
- Thread starter Lily
- Start date
have you ridden an old monster
accept it, it's not the bikes it's the riders and you get novices and idiots on every make.
Fergie
New member
have you ridden an old monster
accept it, it's not the bikes it's the riders and you get novices and idiots on every make.
Ok. That is a fair point.
Accept then if you will, that if the rules had been followed it would not have occurred!
Lily
Pink Totty
I agree.. in part!!
there should never be any vagueness about the dangers of being on track.. equally there shouldn't be scaremongering, it should be balanced and honest.
With regard the no brakelights sidestand etc?? does ths mean you cannot ride a track bike, it's road only???
I agree that diving under someone into a corner can be dangerous, my point is that most people don't actually try to do this.. just sometimes it appears that way due to a mismatch in riders abilities or experience. As I said above this incident might not have been the honda rider diving underneath, he could have been riding very safely and the other guy did something unexpected... this happens with the best riders and often with novices.
It appears that much of this is not to do with the make of bike, but the levels of experience and skill that are being mixed on track?? However in the instance this time it would appear that both were novices and it was an unfortunate incident rather than recklessness.. this does happen!
Sadly in Scotland there ar enot that many trackdays/nights so people will want to do them this means you will get all abilities and all bikes. I am guessing it is not economically viable for DG to do ducati only nights and even so would this really solve matters??
Maybe do some nights as novice only, road bikes only any make??
some nights any bike any experience but split the groups
some nights free for all and you take your chances? (this is how every other trackday operates)
Lily
Pink Totty
Ok. That is a fair point.
Accept then if you will, that if the rules had been followed it would not have occurred!
as said below.. we don't know that the Honda rider was actually trying to overtake into the corner.. it may have appeared that way to the multi rider but to the honda rider it could have been an unexpected corner speed/line that meant they ended up on the same bit of tarmac... we just don't know.
but I do agree, that if there are rules they should be followed, the difficulty is knowing when they were being followed and it just became an unfortunate incident.
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Fergies Right
sticks in my throat, believe me, but Fergie is right. I don't do DG track days, not becuase I'm a fanny (steady !!) but becuase I don't agree with the way they are run. You have novice, intermediate and advanced guys hurtling around a SMALL track with NO proper track discipline. How can a direct access muppet and a knee down whizz kid possibly mix... they can't, it's that simple. I know fergie wants Ducati only - don't care, BUT what you do need is SKILL LEVELS.
The "Orange Bib" is good, but just means the last thing the fast guys remember is some f***ing orange thing... doesn't work, as has been proved.
Oh, and I'm not a slow lane crusier, as certified by Strathclyde Police PLC, a not for profit organisation... my ARSE.
sticks in my throat, believe me, but Fergie is right. I don't do DG track days, not becuase I'm a fanny (steady !!) but becuase I don't agree with the way they are run. You have novice, intermediate and advanced guys hurtling around a SMALL track with NO proper track discipline. How can a direct access muppet and a knee down whizz kid possibly mix... they can't, it's that simple. I know fergie wants Ducati only - don't care, BUT what you do need is SKILL LEVELS.
The "Orange Bib" is good, but just means the last thing the fast guys remember is some f***ing orange thing... doesn't work, as has been proved.
Oh, and I'm not a slow lane crusier, as certified by Strathclyde Police PLC, a not for profit organisation... my ARSE.
DKM
Member
I've never been to a track night but I have been on a few large ride outs. I stopped going on these because they were basically starting to turn into road races, and you felt yourself getting sucked into driving faster than your abilities should allow. Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this happen to a few people on track nights? I worry that it would happen to me, or that if I did manage to stay cool I would become an obstacle to other riders?
PaulV
New member
Ok, my tuppence worth.
Ducati only track nights... If it was viable, financially, Martin would do it I am sure. The make of bike does not stop or cause the crashes.
Rules, undertaking etc... Martin books Knockhill, Knockhill manage the event. The events are marshalled so Knockhill are at least giving the nod toward trying to manage the behaviour of the riders.
Skill levels.... One of the draws of the DG track nights is the open pit lane policy, you go out on track when you want, you take a breather when you want, you don't feel pressured to get every minute of tracktime you can because you will only have half an hour. It is the relaxed atmosphere that most people like.
Every now and again these things happen. We all know the risks, experienced riders might manage them slightly better but people still chose to track their bikes.
Regarding the hairpin incident, I saw a bloke on a grassy knoll...........
Ducati only track nights... If it was viable, financially, Martin would do it I am sure. The make of bike does not stop or cause the crashes.
Rules, undertaking etc... Martin books Knockhill, Knockhill manage the event. The events are marshalled so Knockhill are at least giving the nod toward trying to manage the behaviour of the riders.
Skill levels.... One of the draws of the DG track nights is the open pit lane policy, you go out on track when you want, you take a breather when you want, you don't feel pressured to get every minute of tracktime you can because you will only have half an hour. It is the relaxed atmosphere that most people like.
Every now and again these things happen. We all know the risks, experienced riders might manage them slightly better but people still chose to track their bikes.
Regarding the hairpin incident, I saw a bloke on a grassy knoll...........
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
I think this discussion is going nowhere, All trackdays are the same, there will always be varing abilities and speeds - Christ, we see this in Moto GP and WSB for god sake! This was an 'incident' that happened at the hairpin, it has happened so many times at so many hairpins, and will happen again.
I had insurance that included trackday insurance when I took the Porsche on the track. I'm sure this must be available for bikes.
I believe there are more risks riding on the road than on the track.
One thing I do believe and I see this at the DG events is that us experienced trackdayers do give the novices a wide birth and do try and avoid overtaking in the corners. For my part, like Lily, I don't have 160hp at my disposal but can carry higher cornering speeds and can outbrake some higher powered bikes therefore the 'only overtaking on the straights' becomes quite difficult for me. I do however I like to think that I posess some trackcraft and common sense so thus far have not caused or had an accident.
I would also hate to think that people stay away because they feel that they would be mobbed constantly by nutter hurtling round at double their speed. It just isn't the case - well that's my opinion anyway!!!
I had insurance that included trackday insurance when I took the Porsche on the track. I'm sure this must be available for bikes.
I believe there are more risks riding on the road than on the track.
One thing I do believe and I see this at the DG events is that us experienced trackdayers do give the novices a wide birth and do try and avoid overtaking in the corners. For my part, like Lily, I don't have 160hp at my disposal but can carry higher cornering speeds and can outbrake some higher powered bikes therefore the 'only overtaking on the straights' becomes quite difficult for me. I do however I like to think that I posess some trackcraft and common sense so thus far have not caused or had an accident.
I would also hate to think that people stay away because they feel that they would be mobbed constantly by nutter hurtling round at double their speed. It just isn't the case - well that's my opinion anyway!!!
weeian
New member
hmm, in an ideal world guys.
the nights are fine as long as folk just relax.
not a video of the other night but heres last years video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...24&q=ducati+glasgow&ei=weMZSODbFI-GjgLNv7HZBg
have a beer guys
/ian
the nights are fine as long as folk just relax.
not a video of the other night but heres last years video.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...24&q=ducati+glasgow&ei=weMZSODbFI-GjgLNv7HZBg
have a beer guys
/ian
Martin Ducati Glasgow
New member
Right - As the organiser, my 2p worth!. A long reply but please stick with it!
I have ridden on tracks all over the world with riders of vastly varying skill levels. As with everyone else, I started as a complete novice then moved into the intermediate group and now like to think of myself as a reasonably competant and quick rider.
In other words, i've been doing this a while and know what it's like to be looking from every possible side of the fence - from novice to organiser. I know how scary it is to be starting out for the first time. Hence the tuition I give freely to those who ask.
I organise these nights to introduce my favourite hobby to my customers and give them an idea of what it is like to ride their bikes in their natural intended environment. In general, just about everyone (whether they crash, are a regular crasher, or never crash) loves these nights. There are the occasional ones that just don't like it but that happens in every walk of life and is human nature. I fully understand and am delighted they tried anyway.
But get this: - Track riding is not an exact science and it will not ever be!!
People make mistakes, get carried away in the moment, get tired, lose concentration and so on!
When you go to a track event YOU MUST understand that this is a very real possibility - if you don't you are totally kidding yourself on.
I mean, we should all automatically understand, the danger aspect is one of the reasons it is so exciting, it is what gets your heart pounding!!!!!
We ride motorcycles!!! This has its inbuilt dangers, we are not part of a sewing circle!!! If you venture onto a track on a motorcycle, you must be aware of the potential hazards - i'm sure we all are!
OF COURSE WE TRY TO LIMIT THE DANGER TO AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM AND ORGANISE THESE NIGHTS TO BE AS RISK FREE AND SAFE AS POSSIBLE. That is what the briefing is for, if folks choose not to follow these guidelines we will react accordingly as we see fit. In the worst examples, if the rider does not grasp this attitude adjustment, they will be asked to leave.
However, it is not possible to police every rider at every corner, if that is what you require from the night, simply don't go, you will be disappointed i'm afraid. A crash can happen in the blink of an eye, with no forewarning of tell tale. That is the nature of motorsport. Accept it! It is fine to criticise afterwards with 20/20 hindsight but hard to rectify the situation.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the make of bike, the tyres or its state of trim - it's the riders attitude or unfortunate mistake that causes accidents!
I use slicks and track fairings because I know the speed I am going I am very likely to crash!!!!! As to cost, the spec of my bike far exceeds that of the road version and would be more costly to dop - it's not a money thing!!
I like to know the grip level I have is maximised and the damage I may cause in a drop will be minimal.
That does not mean I ride like a nutter, maybe faster than most (who then automatically think i'm nuts) but trust me i'm not stupid, I have no strange desire to crash.
Neither do I wish to take anyone out either - and never (touch wood) have I done so. The track spec of my bike is not linked to my over taking behaviour but it IS linked to the pace I ride - two very different things!!
Do we honestly think that if everone followed the rules to the letter that would remove the possibillity of an accident happening??? That's ridiculous - of course it wouldn't - it might go some way to helping but look up the definition of 'an accident'!
We have been running these nights for 5 years now and this is the very first time we have had a collision. I knew one day it would happen but am thankful it was a minor incident and everyone was OK. Do I think it may happen again?? Of course it might and probably will. But if it is once every five years then in the grand scheme of things that is a fairly reasonable record, especially if there is no serious injury. If that is as bad as it ever gets I will be quite thankful. My understanding of the event was a novice that got a bit carried away and lost control. 'There but for the grace of God go i ...........'
I have a number of reasons for the nights being open session. Most importantly, each rider has the opportunity to ride for as much of 2 full hours on track if they please. Sessions do not offer that. An open session is so incredibly flexible as to the enjoyment of those there, it is a clear winner in terms of available choice against cost.
I also think they are safer. Fast and slow CAN mix, we've been doing it long enough!!
There is no mad last 5 mins at the end of each session as the rider gets his 'last few fast laps' in before a 40 min break. That can be carnage. Sessions also require far higher numbers of riders paying less each due to less track time. This means far more admin, office work, advertising and overall hassle for less track time - no thanks.
IF everyone follows the rules as closely as they can - normally there is no real problem.
Ducati ONLY? At this stage unfortunately is not viable, been there, done that. - I am not being asked for it although would happily do so at a later date. My customers need only ask.
From a sales point of view, we have sold many Ducatis to other brand owners after the event - which is another huge reason for keeping them as they are.
For the moment, considering all points here I intend to keep things as they are but will modify the briefing offered at the beginning of each night. If I can drum in the safety aspect, over and above the usual briefing from Knockhill, this can only help.
Other than that we will learn from every event and try to make each one better than the last.
Sorry for the very lengthy reply but this has a lot of angles to cover.
Mart
I have ridden on tracks all over the world with riders of vastly varying skill levels. As with everyone else, I started as a complete novice then moved into the intermediate group and now like to think of myself as a reasonably competant and quick rider.
In other words, i've been doing this a while and know what it's like to be looking from every possible side of the fence - from novice to organiser. I know how scary it is to be starting out for the first time. Hence the tuition I give freely to those who ask.
I organise these nights to introduce my favourite hobby to my customers and give them an idea of what it is like to ride their bikes in their natural intended environment. In general, just about everyone (whether they crash, are a regular crasher, or never crash) loves these nights. There are the occasional ones that just don't like it but that happens in every walk of life and is human nature. I fully understand and am delighted they tried anyway.
But get this: - Track riding is not an exact science and it will not ever be!!
People make mistakes, get carried away in the moment, get tired, lose concentration and so on!
When you go to a track event YOU MUST understand that this is a very real possibility - if you don't you are totally kidding yourself on.
I mean, we should all automatically understand, the danger aspect is one of the reasons it is so exciting, it is what gets your heart pounding!!!!!
We ride motorcycles!!! This has its inbuilt dangers, we are not part of a sewing circle!!! If you venture onto a track on a motorcycle, you must be aware of the potential hazards - i'm sure we all are!
OF COURSE WE TRY TO LIMIT THE DANGER TO AN ABSOLUTE MINIMUM AND ORGANISE THESE NIGHTS TO BE AS RISK FREE AND SAFE AS POSSIBLE. That is what the briefing is for, if folks choose not to follow these guidelines we will react accordingly as we see fit. In the worst examples, if the rider does not grasp this attitude adjustment, they will be asked to leave.
However, it is not possible to police every rider at every corner, if that is what you require from the night, simply don't go, you will be disappointed i'm afraid. A crash can happen in the blink of an eye, with no forewarning of tell tale. That is the nature of motorsport. Accept it! It is fine to criticise afterwards with 20/20 hindsight but hard to rectify the situation.
It has absolutely nothing to do with the make of bike, the tyres or its state of trim - it's the riders attitude or unfortunate mistake that causes accidents!
I use slicks and track fairings because I know the speed I am going I am very likely to crash!!!!! As to cost, the spec of my bike far exceeds that of the road version and would be more costly to dop - it's not a money thing!!
I like to know the grip level I have is maximised and the damage I may cause in a drop will be minimal.
That does not mean I ride like a nutter, maybe faster than most (who then automatically think i'm nuts) but trust me i'm not stupid, I have no strange desire to crash.
Neither do I wish to take anyone out either - and never (touch wood) have I done so. The track spec of my bike is not linked to my over taking behaviour but it IS linked to the pace I ride - two very different things!!
Do we honestly think that if everone followed the rules to the letter that would remove the possibillity of an accident happening??? That's ridiculous - of course it wouldn't - it might go some way to helping but look up the definition of 'an accident'!
We have been running these nights for 5 years now and this is the very first time we have had a collision. I knew one day it would happen but am thankful it was a minor incident and everyone was OK. Do I think it may happen again?? Of course it might and probably will. But if it is once every five years then in the grand scheme of things that is a fairly reasonable record, especially if there is no serious injury. If that is as bad as it ever gets I will be quite thankful. My understanding of the event was a novice that got a bit carried away and lost control. 'There but for the grace of God go i ...........'
I have a number of reasons for the nights being open session. Most importantly, each rider has the opportunity to ride for as much of 2 full hours on track if they please. Sessions do not offer that. An open session is so incredibly flexible as to the enjoyment of those there, it is a clear winner in terms of available choice against cost.
I also think they are safer. Fast and slow CAN mix, we've been doing it long enough!!
There is no mad last 5 mins at the end of each session as the rider gets his 'last few fast laps' in before a 40 min break. That can be carnage. Sessions also require far higher numbers of riders paying less each due to less track time. This means far more admin, office work, advertising and overall hassle for less track time - no thanks.
IF everyone follows the rules as closely as they can - normally there is no real problem.
Ducati ONLY? At this stage unfortunately is not viable, been there, done that. - I am not being asked for it although would happily do so at a later date. My customers need only ask.
From a sales point of view, we have sold many Ducatis to other brand owners after the event - which is another huge reason for keeping them as they are.
For the moment, considering all points here I intend to keep things as they are but will modify the briefing offered at the beginning of each night. If I can drum in the safety aspect, over and above the usual briefing from Knockhill, this can only help.
Other than that we will learn from every event and try to make each one better than the last.
Sorry for the very lengthy reply but this has a lot of angles to cover.
Mart
Last edited:
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Martin, your 2p worth ???? Have you been using the money on the p/x on my 999R then - anyway as Clint Eastwood says, opinions are like arse holes - everyone has one. Some say mixed, some say not, some say Ducati only, some say not. Some say, can we talk about something else, this is getting rather boring now.... You may well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.
BTW I'll be in around 1pm - have it shiny, full of fuel and READY !!!!
- anyway as Clint Eastwood says, opinions are like arse holes - everyone has one. Some say mixed, some say not, some say Ducati only, some say not. Some say, can we talk about something else, this is getting rather boring now.... You may well think that, I couldn't possibly comment.BTW I'll be in around 1pm - have it shiny, full of fuel and READY !!!!
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
It Just Came To Me
I have the solution to Fergie's concerns over fast guys coming up behind novices... fast guys go on the track CLOCKWISE, novices ANTI-CLOCKWISE, then the fast guys will NEVER come up behind the slow guys.... eh, see, it took a rookie to work that one out
Legal Liability Disclaimer: the author does not suggest that this should be attempted (especially if he's on the track at the time).... going anti clockwise by the way !!! It would be worth trying it on PS3 though.
I have the solution to Fergie's concerns over fast guys coming up behind novices... fast guys go on the track CLOCKWISE, novices ANTI-CLOCKWISE, then the fast guys will NEVER come up behind the slow guys.... eh, see, it took a rookie to work that one out
Legal Liability Disclaimer: the author does not suggest that this should be attempted (especially if he's on the track at the time).... going anti clockwise by the way !!! It would be worth trying it on PS3 though.
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
Martin,
don't change a thing mate, the trackevenings spot on as they are.
I think for those who want to vent their spleen's or stir the cauldron, go and do it on another forum!!!
And now as an 'old hack' on the DuN I think that this thread should be closed...
...my opinion (or my arsehole!!!! 
)
..oh yer, not until I've watched that fun ride Ian & I had last June at Knockhill!!!
don't change a thing mate, the trackevenings spot on as they are.
I think for those who want to vent their spleen's or stir the cauldron, go and do it on another forum!!!
And now as an 'old hack' on the DuN I think that this thread should be closed...
...my opinion (or my arsehole!!!!
)..oh yer, not until I've watched that fun ride Ian & I had last June at Knockhill!!!
Cisco
Active member
FWIW I thought the track day was well run and KH were keeping a careful eye on the proceedings.
Open pit lane is much safer than sessions especially for novice trackdayers cos in sessions they sit there waiting to go out getting more and more nervous then go out in a bunch.
The difference between fast and slow at the Ducati night was quite large, and that is one of the main causes of problems, but there was nowhere near enough riders to segregate into fast and slow.
Imagine it was wet too..here's a link from the Friday before (sorry it's cars, but good fun)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0aW-WuOmlA
Take care,
Frank
Open pit lane is much safer than sessions especially for novice trackdayers cos in sessions they sit there waiting to go out getting more and more nervous then go out in a bunch.
The difference between fast and slow at the Ducati night was quite large, and that is one of the main causes of problems, but there was nowhere near enough riders to segregate into fast and slow.
Imagine it was wet too..here's a link from the Friday before (sorry it's cars, but good fun)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0aW-WuOmlA
Take care,
Frank
Mike Robins
New member
i was there on tuesday (on a KTM). here's what I think.
interesting that the collision happened at the end of a 2 hour open session. people get tired and lose concentration after hooning around for that amount of time whatever their ability. i did 80 miles and left with 15 minutes to go. i always leave before the end because i don't like to chance that last few laps.
i've been doing knockhill trackdays since 2006 from total novice. i now regard myself as intermediate (well i can't keep up with Martin). i've done about 25 sessions. what i would say about this week was that it contained the broadest cross section of rider ability that i have seen out on the track at one time. there were a couple of perfectly safe fast guys who blasted past everyone, but an awful lot of REALLY slow folk. i have absolutely no beef about that, have a great night out I say. But, it is quite a shock to come barrelling up behind a gaggle of riders strewn across the track for half a lap, with none of them on any recognisable racing line. the reality is that you end up diving in and out just to get ahead of them (i overtook regularly under braking into corners but with a wifde birth) and it's really hard to predict when someone will take a totally unpredictable line in front of you.
ok, so that's life i guess. as i say, i'm not judging it, i'm just explaining how it felt on tuesday night for an average rider.
tomorrow morning i'm taking the 999 (track fairing, no lights, no side stand) to knockhill for a regular session in the intermediate group. i'll ride just the same, but it will be a lot safer because in my experience all the riders in the group will be of a broadly similar ability and will behave predictably.
once i booked myself in the advanced group because there were no spaces left in the inter group. i shaat myself. not recommended unless u r good.
so there you go in my view. u pays ur money and u takes ur choice.
m
interesting that the collision happened at the end of a 2 hour open session. people get tired and lose concentration after hooning around for that amount of time whatever their ability. i did 80 miles and left with 15 minutes to go. i always leave before the end because i don't like to chance that last few laps.
i've been doing knockhill trackdays since 2006 from total novice. i now regard myself as intermediate (well i can't keep up with Martin). i've done about 25 sessions. what i would say about this week was that it contained the broadest cross section of rider ability that i have seen out on the track at one time. there were a couple of perfectly safe fast guys who blasted past everyone, but an awful lot of REALLY slow folk. i have absolutely no beef about that, have a great night out I say. But, it is quite a shock to come barrelling up behind a gaggle of riders strewn across the track for half a lap, with none of them on any recognisable racing line. the reality is that you end up diving in and out just to get ahead of them (i overtook regularly under braking into corners but with a wifde birth) and it's really hard to predict when someone will take a totally unpredictable line in front of you.
ok, so that's life i guess. as i say, i'm not judging it, i'm just explaining how it felt on tuesday night for an average rider.
tomorrow morning i'm taking the 999 (track fairing, no lights, no side stand) to knockhill for a regular session in the intermediate group. i'll ride just the same, but it will be a lot safer because in my experience all the riders in the group will be of a broadly similar ability and will behave predictably.
once i booked myself in the advanced group because there were no spaces left in the inter group. i shaat myself. not recommended unless u r good.
so there you go in my view. u pays ur money and u takes ur choice.
m
weeian
New member
Martyns nights are by far the best out of all the trackdays i have done, & i have done quite a few & have a bit of experience with trying different formats. they offer the best value for money & the best fun. hopefully with all the bikes he's sold recently, we'll see more ducati's getting used on the track.
keep it up Mart ! your doing a great job m8. :thumbs:
/ian
keep it up Mart ! your doing a great job m8. :thumbs:
/ian
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
...right, that's it; I'm gonna bury my head in another forum!!!!
weeian
New member
...right, that's it; I'm gonna bury my head in another forum!!!!
u mean other forums have to put up with you as well ???
