The definitive Lithium Battery Thread

This Lithium thing ..... again !

" They all do that sir ....
it's yer Dendritic Growth ..... innit
..... as such "

PS - I thought this thread was supposed to be definitive .... :):):)

PPS - My favourite link to " I'll get me coat " emoji no longer works ...... Drat !

This will have to do for now , until I can fix it .....


 
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Here’s the Lithium argument from fb summed up yet again from someone with actual experience with someone else chipping in who has been a bit luckier - sums it up nicely 🤣



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I put a lithium battery on my DR-Z now I've gone back to lead acid.

The lithium battery was always flat when I went to use it However if I connected it to a conventional 4amp hour charger and pressed the button it would fire into life. With lead acid I feel more comfortable leaving it on the optimiser.
 
Hugo Magnus said:
I put a lithium battery on my DR-Z now I've gone back to lead acid.

The lithium battery was always flat when I went to use it However if I connected it to a conventional 4amp hour charger and pressed the button it would fire into life. With lead acid I feel more comfortable leaving it on the optimiser.
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They can build a resistance to heavy current.
Put the lights on for about 10 seconds then try starting.
Also they don't like low temperatures... even more than lead acid doesn't like low temperatures.
 
Thread resurrection and backwards step.....

I have one battery charger which I bought some 25 years ago and it has, and still does, serve me well. It's basically a 3 pin plug with red LED (the function of which escapes me) and 2 crocodile clips on flying leads. When bought it was ideal for my Monster as it took all of 2 minutes to remove the battery and plug it in indoors, with the ST4 I invested in a BMW style plug and a couple of spare bits of auto cable to attach the crocodile clips to and plug into the accy socket on the bike - all good. This system also works on the Pansexual as it has a socket installed for the same purpose but I now have to plug, unplug and move stuff to charge separately. No big deal but I am thinking of enhancing my charging abilities by investing in a 2nd charger.

Cheap and cheerful is the order of the day and they are both lead/acid batteries, I tend to give them a blast every couple or three weeks for a few hours over winter to keep charged up so I don't think I would benefit from an expensive optimate as I wouldn't intend leaving it plugged in for months on end.

I got a solar charger some time ago but I'm not convinced it works very effectively, the blue LED flashes to tell me it is working when it is light but I don't know how it performs in reality in terms of charge rate and whether it really helps the battery it is attached to.

Any recommendations?
 
Barry Hell said:
Cheap and cheerful is the order of the day and they are both lead/acid batteries ......
........
Any recommendations?
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The Smart Charger from Aldi ...... usually around £12
They come back in stock quite often , and usually turn up at this time of year .
I've been using mine for about 3 years and can't fault it .

Barry Hell said:
I invested in a BMW style plug and a couple of spare bits of auto cable
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I want to do exactly the same ...... where did you get the plug from ?
.
 
Duke of Prunes said:
The Smart Charger from Aldi ...... usually around £12
They come back in stock quite often , and usually turn up at this time of year .
I've been using mine for about 3 years and can't fault it .



I want to do exactly the same ...... where did you get the plug from ?
.
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Years ago from a Heine Gerike (sp) shop, it was a bare plug I could strip and wire.

You could try one of these and cut off the cigarette lighter plug so you have the bare wire extension

 
Duke of Prunes said:
The Smart Charger from Aldi ...... usually around £12
They come back in stock quite often , and usually turn up at this time of year .
I've been using mine for about 3 years and can't fault it .



I want to do exactly the same ...... where did you get the plug from ?
.
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Even betterrer

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I have 2 optimate 4s. One is permsmtly attached to the 998S the other revolves around the other bikes, all of which have an Optimate fly lead attached to the battery and thus I csn just plug in the charger whenever I want.

I also have a cheapie Aldi one which I use to charge completely dead batteries. It works but I’m not sure about leaving it attached all the time.

Optimates aren’t that expensive. Cheaper than a new battery.
 
West Cork Paul said:
I have 2 optimate 4s. One is permsmtly attached to the 998S the other revolves around the other bikes, all of which have an Optimate fly lead attached to the battery and thus I csn just plug in the charger whenever I want.

I also have a cheapie Aldi one which I use to charge completely dead batteries. It works but I’m not sure about leaving it attached all the time.

Optimates aren’t that expensive. Cheaper than a new battery.
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I've a smorgerboard of chargers for both LiPo and Pb batteries. 🤷‍♂️

Most are Optimate 4.
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I got a couple of cTek LiPo chargers for bikes ith Litium batteries.
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But one of them hated being plugged into the Shorai LiPo on the 1098R. It would be fine when the battery was off the bike, but there is a slight drain when on the bike (probably immobiliser, but a Ducati tech told me the data logger usb can also produce a drain) and the charger used to show a fault, saying the battery couldn't hold a charge.

So I bought a dedicated Shorai battery charger which is fine with the battery on the bike. It will also 'Store' the battery at 70% charge while the bike isn't in use to extend battery life.
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I recently decided to make the switch on my old Ducati, and it’s been a fantastic experience. The weight savings were immediately noticeable, making the bike feel much more agile. I didn’t need any special charger—my old one worked just fine, which was a relief.
One thing that stood out for me was the reliability. I went with a reputable brand, and it’s been solid with no overheating issues, thanks to the built-in protection. I’ve read that the lipo battery cell is quite advanced now, and that seems to be true. I also saved a bit by doing some research and opting for a good yet affordable model.
I understand the concerns about changing the rec/rec and charger compatibility, but so far, I haven’t faced any issues.
 
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Vickrohhk said:
I’ve been following the recent discussions about lithium batteries on the DOCGB FB group and have some thoughts to share. Lithium batteries can definitely make a noticeable difference in starting performance and weight reduction on older bikes. Personally, I've switched to a lithium battery on my 2003 Monster and it's been fantastic. I didn't have to change my charger; my old one worked just fine. I did a bit of research and found that modern lithium batteries, especially the lipo battery cells, are designed with built-in protection to prevent overheating.
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Welcome Vic(k), on older machines the LiPo battery is not the main concern mate, its actually the reg/rectifier which can't cope with the increased amps, more resistance and therefore heat, which in some cases has ended catastrophically, older reg/recs are prone to heat failure as is. If you have fitted a LiPo, I would advise a modern 'mosfet' replacement reg/rec, placed somewhere in good airflow.
 
Vickrohhk said:
I’ve been following the recent discussions about lithium batteries on the DOCGB FB group and have some thoughts to share. Lithium batteries can definitely make a noticeable difference in starting performance and weight reduction on older bikes. Personally, I've switched to a lithium battery on my 2003 Monster and it's been fantastic. I didn't have to change my charger; my old one worked just fine. I did a bit of research and found that modern lithium batteries, especially the lipo battery cells, are designed with built-in protection to prevent overheating.
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I know of a modern Shorai Lithium Battery with surge protection setting fire to a 1098R.
Also if you check out Electrex World web site - a manufacturer of modern Reg/Rectifiers - they state never to use a Lithium Battery with their products - this is because they have experience across many customers and have seen countless issues.

Can Lipo Batteries fail and cause fires: yes, will they all do it: no 🔥 👀
 
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Vickrohhk said:
I’ve been following the recent discussions about lithium batteries on the DOCGB FB group and have some thoughts to share. Lithium batteries can definitely make a noticeable difference in starting performance and weight reduction on older bikes. Personally, I've switched to a lithium battery on my 2003 Monster and it's been fantastic. I didn't have to change my charger; my old one worked just fine. I did a bit of research and found that modern lithium batteries, especially the lipo battery cells, are designed with built-in protection to prevent overheating.
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Whilst modern (and good quality aka the more expensive) lithium batteries have a battery management system to prevent (or rather minimise the risk of) overheating, as said above the issue is the reg/rec. A lithium battery needs a very precise 14.2v to charge it, 14.1-14.3 is just about ok but it’s very fussy. A lead acid battery can tolerate up to 15 or even 16 v going into it.

The r/r is receiving AC voltage at up to 80v and converting it into DC voltage for the vehicle’s electrical systems and to keep the battery charged. On a bike of your vintage it puts out 13-14.5v.

When (not if but when because it will fail at some stage) the r/r fails it will either fail to low or to high depending which electrical components internally fail. If it fails to low ie puts out less than 13v then nothing too bad will happen other than your battery won’t get fully charged and you’ll eventually grind to a halt. On the other hand if it fails to high and starts pumping out over 14.5v then whereas a LA battery would be more tolerant for longer a Lithium battery won’t. In this situation the BMS will prevent more than 14.2v going into the battery cells but the excess voltage has to go somewhere. It’s dissipated as heat. The components of the BMS get hot and hotter the longer it goes on. They can eventually melt and fail and that’s when the full excess voltage flows into the lithium cells. They now begin to overheat and worst case an unputoutable fire results.

If you’ve not already done so swap your r/r for a mosfet one designed for lithium. It will put out a constant and regular 14.2v and If it fails it will only fail to low.
 
West Cork Paul said:
Whilst modern (and good quality aka the more expensive) lithium batteries have a battery management system to prevent (or rather minimise the risk of) overheating, as said above the issue is the reg/rec. A lithium battery needs a very precise 14.2v to charge it, 14.1-14.3 is just about ok but it’s very fussy. A lead acid battery can tolerate up to 15 or even 16 v going into it.

The r/r is receiving AC voltage at up to 80v and converting it into DC voltage for the vehicle’s electrical systems and to keep the battery charged. On a bike of your vintage it puts out 13-14.5v.

When (not if but when because it will fail at some stage) the r/r fails it will either fail to low or to high depending which electrical components internally fail. If it fails to low ie puts out less than 13v then nothing too bad will happen other than your battery won’t get fully charged and you’ll eventually grind to a halt. On the other hand if it fails to high and starts pumping out over 14.5v then whereas a LA battery would be more tolerant for longer a Lithium battery won’t. In this situation the BMS will prevent more than 14.2v going into the battery cells but the excess voltage has to go somewhere. It’s dissipated as heat. The components of the BMS get hot and hotter the longer it goes on. They can eventually melt and fail and that’s when the full excess voltage flows into the lithium cells. They now begin to overheat and worst case an unputoutable fire results.

If you’ve not already done so swap your r/r for a mosfet one designed for lithium. It will put out a constant and regular 14.2v and If it fails it will only fail to low.
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Plus one for this. Important stuff to understand. Happy riding
 
West Cork Paul said:
Whilst modern (and good quality aka the more expensive) lithium batteries have a battery management system to prevent (or rather minimise the risk of) overheating, as said above the issue is the reg/rec. A lithium battery needs a very precise 14.2v to charge it, 14.1-14.3 is just about ok but it’s very fussy. A lead acid battery can tolerate up to 15 or even 16 v going into it.

The r/r is receiving AC voltage at up to 80v and converting it into DC voltage for the vehicle’s electrical systems and to keep the battery charged. On a bike of your vintage it puts out 13-14.5v.

When (not if but when because it will fail at some stage) the r/r fails it will either fail to low or to high depending which electrical components internally fail. If it fails to low ie puts out less than 13v then nothing too bad will happen other than your battery won’t get fully charged and you’ll eventually grind to a halt. On the other hand if it fails to high and starts pumping out over 14.5v then whereas a LA battery would be more tolerant for longer a Lithium battery won’t. In this situation the BMS will prevent more than 14.2v going into the battery cells but the excess voltage has to go somewhere. It’s dissipated as heat. The components of the BMS get hot and hotter the longer it goes on. They can eventually melt and fail and that’s when the full excess voltage flows into the lithium cells. They now begin to overheat and worst case an unputoutable fire results.

If you’ve not already done so swap your r/r for a mosfet one designed for lithium. It will put out a constant and regular 14.2v and If it fails it will only fail to low.
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Note
The pcb within a lithium-ion battery typically manages the charging of each cell individually. And is not designed to shunt/waste/heat the excess energy from over charging.
 
West Cork Paul said:
Whilst modern (and good quality aka the more expensive) lithium batteries have a battery management system to prevent (or rather minimise the risk of) overheating, as said above the issue is the reg/rec. A lithium battery needs a very precise 14.2v to charge it, 14.1-14.3 is just about ok but it’s very fussy. A lead acid battery can tolerate up to 15 or even 16 v going into it.

The r/r is receiving AC voltage at up to 80v and converting it into DC voltage for the vehicle’s electrical systems and to keep the battery charged. On a bike of your vintage it puts out 13-14.5v.

When (not if but when because it will fail at some stage) the r/r fails it will either fail to low or to high depending which electrical components internally fail. If it fails to low ie puts out less than 13v then nothing too bad will happen other than your battery won’t get fully charged and you’ll eventually grind to a halt. On the other hand if it fails to high and starts pumping out over 14.5v then whereas a LA battery would be more tolerant for longer a Lithium battery won’t. In this situation the BMS will prevent more than 14.2v going into the battery cells but the excess voltage has to go somewhere. It’s dissipated as heat. The components of the BMS get hot and hotter the longer it goes on. They can eventually melt and fail and that’s when the full excess voltage flows into the lithium cells. They now begin to overheat and worst case an unputoutable fire results.

If you’ve not already done so swap your r/r for a mosfet one designed for lithium. It will put out a constant and regular 14.2v and If it fails it will only fail to low.
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I've yet to come across a PCB that controls the discharge of a 12V lithium battery used in the automotive industry.
It would be possible to install a polyswitch**, say 15off at 21A (wired in parallel), but the cost would be prohibitive.

To prove me wrong please take your battery to the middle of a recently ploughed field, then place a 12/13mm combination spanner directly across the + and - battery terminals. Please get a colleague* to record the experiment.

* I say colleague as no friend would let you conduct this experiment.

** https://www.littelfuse.com/products...yswitch-resettable-pptc-devices/battery-strap
 
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