PaulV
New member
Think so Steve, it is featured in the Bike mag review of all available models...
The cheeky buggers at Cagiva are putting it out with a very MV looking red over silver paint job!:comp2:
The Hardly Dangerous takes on the GT1000
- Thread starter Steve748
- Start date
Think so Steve, it is featured in the Bike mag review of all available models...
The cheeky buggers at Cagiva are putting it out with a very MV looking red over silver paint job!:comp2:
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
'Kin 'ell... need a day off to read this thread. ALL very valid points. It would appear that the majority agree that Ducati have lost their soul and indeed "lost their way"... It would be arrogant of me to comment, I only came into Ducati during the 999 reign, so I'm a "newbie".
One thing I will leave with you. The majority seek exclusivity, with that comes the reliability issues. To have a reliable bike/car/washing machine, it needs to be "mass produced". Then there's dealer support, a manufacturer selling x 1000 bikes will not have the luxury of a worldwide dealer network... or at least an EXCLUSIVE network, they might be "added on" to other franchises, but there goes the passion again.
I still think Ducati have got a good balance between mass production, reliability, styling, lifestyle, branding and LOYALTY - although many of you should change your Avatar to JUDAS..
One thing I will leave with you. The majority seek exclusivity, with that comes the reliability issues. To have a reliable bike/car/washing machine, it needs to be "mass produced". Then there's dealer support, a manufacturer selling x 1000 bikes will not have the luxury of a worldwide dealer network... or at least an EXCLUSIVE network, they might be "added on" to other franchises, but there goes the passion again.
I still think Ducati have got a good balance between mass production, reliability, styling, lifestyle, branding and LOYALTY - although many of you should change your Avatar to JUDAS..
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Where's Fergie
as much as it sticks in my throat and will cause huge psychological issues later in life ... I would welcome Fergies take on this - ie the mass production against the Exclusive... can you have the benefits of BOTH ???
as much as it sticks in my throat and will cause huge psychological issues later in life
... I would welcome Fergies take on this - ie the mass production against the Exclusive... can you have the benefits of BOTH ??? 
Gizmo
Forum Geek
as much as it sticks in my throat and will cause huge psychological issues later in life
I deal with that dilemma every day..... exclusive brand but we need numbers to fight to keep manufacturing here yet compete against far eastern made brands with margin. Do you join them in a volume game which you'll eventually lose and it means shifting production so you can't go back or keep things small, niche and hope there's enough customers out there who buy into it.... We made our choice, we're now the last remaining UK manufacturer of mountain bikes.....
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Michael, sorry, my ignorance is sometimes outweighed only by my arrogance !!! I didn't realise what your business / background was... seems there is a lot of similarities then. Would you agree then, that on a worldwide scale, exclusivity would come at a cost of dealer support / reliability. Remember too that we now live, sadly, in the age where beancounters, accountants and shareholders call the shots. Ducati 20-30 years ago would have been run from the heart, today, it's run by the wallet, and the two are NEVER going to agree. Which makes we wonder about a previous thread on the D16RR, it would NOT have made money, that, to me, was a "by the heart" decision. I have to concede here that I just might be talking one load of p1sh... there is a real strong chance of that
I didn't realise what your business / background was... seems there is a lot of similarities then. Would you agree then, that on a worldwide scale, exclusivity would come at a cost of dealer support / reliability. Remember too that we now live, sadly, in the age where beancounters, accountants and shareholders call the shots. Ducati 20-30 years ago would have been run from the heart, today, it's run by the wallet, and the two are NEVER going to agree. Which makes we wonder about a previous thread on the D16RR, it would NOT have made money, that, to me, was a "by the heart" decision. I have to concede here that I just might be talking one load of p1sh... there is a real strong chance of that
Gizmo
Forum Geek
as much as it sticks in my throat and will cause huge psychological issues later in life
oh, forgot to answer fully but yes, you can, Apple succesfully make customers think they are part of an exclusive club yet sell millions of iphones/laptops/ipods.
bobsyeruncle
Well-known member
The sales figures speak for themselves!!!
Ducati sales are up 25% or so when just about everyone elses have dropped.
I think they need to look at a replacement for the ST range though....
Ducati sales are up 25% or so when just about everyone elses have dropped.
I think they need to look at a replacement for the ST range though....
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Now we most certainly disagree Mike
Working in graphics we're right in the Apple domain... and being part of an "exclusive club" .... can you hear that ???? That's my designers going WHIT !!!!! You ever tried to phone Apple support - gooda afta-noon tink yoo for callwing Apple...I'm going out on a limb here... You can't Have Exclusivity Without Sacrificing Either Support Or Reliability (based on a worldwide network).
bobsyeruncle
Well-known member
Hope you are not being racist here!
Doesn't seem to matter who you call these days, the phones are manned by overseas operators!
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Paul, Micheal, other doubters out there
Does this not then really prove that they have indeed got the range / price / reliability right ??? The proof is going to be in a year or so time I think. Again, I remember Fergie claiming that the 1098 would be Ducati's NEMASIS 
One other thing, the used values of 1098's are holding VERY well, again an indication that the product is right and ticks all the boxes.C'mon Fergie, where are you.... BMW busted again, are you in lay by again :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
Steve748
New member
The factory have stopped making the sport classic range as there are more made than they are selling.
With the D16rr, I would have thought that they would have worked out how much they cost to develop and manufacture and whatever the cost was, they added enough to make a profit on each and every one. They still would have sold every one with another £5k added on. They were not built to a price like other bikes because there is nothing else that compares. There is no point in making them as a loss leader. They will make profit on all the spares though, for sure
With the D16rr, I would have thought that they would have worked out how much they cost to develop and manufacture and whatever the cost was, they added enough to make a profit on each and every one. They still would have sold every one with another £5k added on. They were not built to a price like other bikes because there is nothing else that compares. There is no point in making them as a loss leader. They will make profit on all the spares though, for sure
bobsyeruncle
Well-known member
Are you implying that they will break down???
Steve748
New member
Are you implying that they will break down???
no I was thinking of the ones that get dropped on TD's with peeps trying to do what Stoner does with his...
bobsyeruncle
Well-known member
no I was thinking of the ones that get dropped on TD's with peeps trying to do what Stoner does with his...
that's different then!
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
We've discussed in another thread whether the Desmosedicci RR made money or not, I don't think so (again) but it will have sold many Ducs off the PR generated by it, much like the great god Foggy did riding Ducs back in the '90s.
Back to this thread, I think the only way to get what you really want is to make it yourself! I suppose I am lucky because I had that opportunity to make exactly what I wanted, to the spec that I wanted, with the level of tune that I wanted, and virtually to the design that I wanted. I'm happy as I'm not left with a decision as to what to chose.
Back to this thread, I think the only way to get what you really want is to make it yourself! I suppose I am lucky because I had that opportunity to make exactly what I wanted, to the spec that I wanted, with the level of tune that I wanted, and virtually to the design that I wanted. I'm happy as I'm not left with a decision as to what to chose.
Alright then..I'll bitePaul, Micheal, other doubters out there
IMO range popularity is likely to be short lived because popular style unlike iconic style is not enduring. Reliability is a longer term influence than one years sales increase reflects. Price, well, see there is already a 50:50 deal around on the (popular
) 1098/848, and let's face it the 848 thingy has not been around long.
There you go, pick ya teeth on that
(Great thread all by the way)
Steve748
New member
Hang on, are you suggesting that bike buyers see the D16rr on the track and howling round the streets of Glasgow amongst other places and then go down to their local dealer and buy a Monster or 1098 848 or sport classic.............no I don't think so
Can you please explain why a manufacturer of iconic products would make a highly desirable product that nearly sold out before production started and put the price up by £2.5k half way to the end of the sales cut off of 1500 at a loss?
Remember Ducati were making a loss when they thought of this so what better way of returning the company to a healthy state and making a partnership with another company a possibility.
PaulV
New member
Steve, it is proven that top end products/promotions can and do draw customers to a brand.
The DD16 is a fine example of that. The question of actual provitability of each one sold may never be understood by anyone outside of the factory walls.
As far as the 1098 being a NEMESIS, short term wise abolutely not. Long term wise, without the yearly updates that Jap bikes get, I think longterm popularity will evade it as a model.
It doesn't have iconic designed into it in my opinion.
The DD16 is a fine example of that. The question of actual provitability of each one sold may never be understood by anyone outside of the factory walls.
As far as the 1098 being a NEMESIS, short term wise abolutely not. Long term wise, without the yearly updates that Jap bikes get, I think longterm popularity will evade it as a model.
It doesn't have iconic designed into it in my opinion.
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
We discussed it at length on this thread. Desmo thread
Standard marketing stuff, all auto & bike manufacturers have undertaken this sort of thing before. Veyron, 959, etc. etc.
Standard marketing stuff, all auto & bike manufacturers have undertaken this sort of thing before. Veyron, 959, etc. etc.
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
And that dear readers is MARKETING, bring a product to market that everyone likes, adores etc, press love and write about, but only 0.01% of the buying public would pay, and the result, BRAND AWARENESS for the rest of the product range. Loss leaders pave the way. I'm not actually saying one way or another if that's the case. 1500 bikes at £37,500 is £56,250,000... so that's RETAIL. What did the factory make... £25-30m ??? Does that cover R&D, marketing, production etc . I don't know, I simply don't know.
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
Looking back earlier in this thread, I just love the new Cagiva Mito. My altime favourite bike that Ducati/Cagive group made was the C594 500 GP bike. That Mito is a 2008 bike, the C594 is from 1994, how iconic is that for an enduring design classic!!! God even the air-intake and upper fairing of the D16 owe alot to this bike....
Beautiful!!!
Beautiful!!!
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Paul and Ed have agreed on this (this should form the basis for a public holiday
) I don't know to be honest... I think the 1098 has captured the mood of the buyer, but "icons" don't come along that often, so probably in that light the 1098 will never replace "the good old days", in reality, it's light years ahead !!! 2p 
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Ed, swing arm, upper fairing, tank.... it's a D16RR in drag.... and yes... BEAUTIFUL.... absolutely stunning in fact.
P
ProjectImola004
Just visiting
Stuart, Paul and I don't always disagree....! 
Derek, I must have missed that one...
...I want one, I want one, I want one!!!!
Derek, I must have missed that one...
...I want one, I want one, I want one!!!!
Martin Ducati Glasgow
New member
I'm absolutely stunned to hear some of the opionions on this thread.
Gizmo, i'm sorry, PT's designs, while you clearly think they were revolutionary and single minded in a new direction (I agree in part) nearly caused the factory serious financial issues, it was their darkest times in recent years!!
I am a fan of his Superbike design (I loved mine) and of his much admired Supermono. But I am also clearly aware that I / we are not in the public majority.
You forget, PT was also part of a team - he didn't make all those designs himself. For that matter neither did Tamburini!! PT was on his team!!!
I'm really sorry mate but I couldn't disagree more with the points of your post. It seems that you are a fan of Ducati when a) they were a very rare beast and b)they are supposedly designed by one man, which in actual fact has never been the case. Form has followed function in every case. Design has followed manufacturing ability (and always will).
In actual fact Domenicali is the man most responsible for the designs now - not a board or committee. His influence is paramount.
I see you acknowledge your cynicism but in my mind your opinion simply cannot be based in fact!
The range is just one family smaller than it has always been, with the absence of the ST. I'm sure Ducati will address this issue as soon as they can.
But they [Ducati] are small manufacturers. If they changed all of the bikes in the range they would simply not be able to meet global demand. It has been hard enough supplying 1098, 848 and new Monster. I can't imagine trying to supply other new additions to the range right now. Growth so rapidly at this level can easily be too painful and the company needs to address infrastructure among many other things to grow successfully at the right pace.
As to the competition moving on while we are being left behind, to me that's total rubbish.
Our bikes are more reliable, more powerful, faster, more comfortable, cheaper to service, with more of the right character (ie not breaking down all the time), with more dealer / network support, better priced parts, more available parts, better variations of accessories, bigger / better clothing ranges, at the right price in a tough market and at least more beautiful than ever before.
I mean jeez, what more do you want?
There has been a massive change for the better over the last few years. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever the brand is heading in the direction it should. It's in black and white everywhere you look!
I'd love to know exactly which brand and / or product is leaving that behind - I think you're mad even suggesting that!!
KTM - off roaders, various motards, a Superbike and soon a car!!!!
BMW - GS, a few tourers, an entry level and a couple of high end motards
Aprilia -Superbike, a couple of learner bikes, scooters, a motard and some off roaders.
Ducati -Superbikes, Monsters (inc an entry level), Classic ranges, Motards, Multistrada. Desmo
I don't see any manufacturer really sticking their neck out further than anyone else here in terms of a broad range. I would say each range shows the size of that manufacturer.
Ducati certainly (and easily!) has the strongest brand and has by far the most racing success at the mo'. I don't see us getting left anywhere by anyone doing anything!?!?!
Oh and there's much more to come!
The new breed of Ducati, thanks to Claudio Domenicali (Of Ducati Corse and MotoGp) and his obsession with motorcycle weight loss and increased power are more to the core of Ducati's ethos and mission statement (A high end Sports Bike Manufacturer) than anything else than has gone before them.
Remember these designs are natural evolutions of the 888 and 916 only far better and far more affordable.
Lost their souls? No way! To me they have not only found MORE soul but got a new lease of life in a concentrated direction that is providing us all with a far better product and also giving my own business a new direction (Which of course I appreciate ). And I could show you the figures, it has never been better than now. There have never been so many Ducatis and Ducatisti as now! These days now, are 'the good old days' - not 10 years ago!!
There are some who cannot see beyond the past and choose not to move with the times - That's not me, I support the brand for what it is, what they have achieved and how they do so. Not for one just model!
Personally for the brand and my family business I like being able to offer the product - my passion, to more people so that they can enjoy what I do. I'm not one for keeping it to myself. And neither do I resist change.
Anyone that thinks "he's gonna say that!" You're wrong, ask those that know me well.
Welcome to the revolution!!
Mart
Gizmo, i'm sorry, PT's designs, while you clearly think they were revolutionary and single minded in a new direction (I agree in part) nearly caused the factory serious financial issues, it was their darkest times in recent years!!
I am a fan of his Superbike design (I loved mine) and of his much admired Supermono. But I am also clearly aware that I / we are not in the public majority.
You forget, PT was also part of a team - he didn't make all those designs himself. For that matter neither did Tamburini!! PT was on his team!!!
I'm really sorry mate but I couldn't disagree more with the points of your post. It seems that you are a fan of Ducati when a) they were a very rare beast and b)they are supposedly designed by one man, which in actual fact has never been the case. Form has followed function in every case. Design has followed manufacturing ability (and always will).
In actual fact Domenicali is the man most responsible for the designs now - not a board or committee. His influence is paramount.
I see you acknowledge your cynicism but in my mind your opinion simply cannot be based in fact!
The range is just one family smaller than it has always been, with the absence of the ST. I'm sure Ducati will address this issue as soon as they can.
But they [Ducati] are small manufacturers. If they changed all of the bikes in the range they would simply not be able to meet global demand. It has been hard enough supplying 1098, 848 and new Monster. I can't imagine trying to supply other new additions to the range right now. Growth so rapidly at this level can easily be too painful and the company needs to address infrastructure among many other things to grow successfully at the right pace.
As to the competition moving on while we are being left behind, to me that's total rubbish.
Our bikes are more reliable, more powerful, faster, more comfortable, cheaper to service, with more of the right character (ie not breaking down all the time), with more dealer / network support, better priced parts, more available parts, better variations of accessories, bigger / better clothing ranges, at the right price in a tough market and at least more beautiful than ever before.
I mean jeez, what more do you want?
There has been a massive change for the better over the last few years. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever the brand is heading in the direction it should. It's in black and white everywhere you look!
I'd love to know exactly which brand and / or product is leaving that behind - I think you're mad even suggesting that!!
KTM - off roaders, various motards, a Superbike and soon a car!!!!
BMW - GS, a few tourers, an entry level and a couple of high end motards
Aprilia -Superbike, a couple of learner bikes, scooters, a motard and some off roaders.
Ducati -Superbikes, Monsters (inc an entry level), Classic ranges, Motards, Multistrada. Desmo
I don't see any manufacturer really sticking their neck out further than anyone else here in terms of a broad range. I would say each range shows the size of that manufacturer.
Ducati certainly (and easily!) has the strongest brand and has by far the most racing success at the mo'. I don't see us getting left anywhere by anyone doing anything!?!?!
Oh and there's much more to come!
The new breed of Ducati, thanks to Claudio Domenicali (Of Ducati Corse and MotoGp) and his obsession with motorcycle weight loss and increased power are more to the core of Ducati's ethos and mission statement (A high end Sports Bike Manufacturer) than anything else than has gone before them.
Remember these designs are natural evolutions of the 888 and 916 only far better and far more affordable.
Lost their souls? No way! To me they have not only found MORE soul but got a new lease of life in a concentrated direction that is providing us all with a far better product and also giving my own business a new direction (Which of course I appreciate
). And I could show you the figures, it has never been better than now. There have never been so many Ducatis and Ducatisti as now! These days now, are 'the good old days' - not 10 years ago!!There are some who cannot see beyond the past and choose not to move with the times - That's not me, I support the brand for what it is, what they have achieved and how they do so. Not for one just model!
Personally for the brand and my family business I like being able to offer the product - my passion, to more people so that they can enjoy what I do. I'm not one for keeping it to myself. And neither do I resist change.
Anyone that thinks "he's gonna say that!" You're wrong, ask those that know me well.
Welcome to the revolution!!
Mart
M
Mad Dash
Just visiting
Martin... I like the "book" you've just posted, I'll read it the next time I'm on holiday....